Theology Club: Why Will No One in the Neo-MAD Camp Address John 3:16?

[glorydaz]

Addressed by what JS likes to call a "Neo-MAD": John 3:16 KJV What it isn't and what it is!

John 3:16 KJV is not the gospel of Christ! It won't save anyone. It is not about how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that He was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16-17 KJV), the word of truth that after hearing and believing we are saved and sealed (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV).

John 3:16 is about Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The "us" in the passage is Israel. We are not Isael. Israel fell (Romans 11:11 KJV), diminished and by the close of the Acts period was cast away for a time and for a season. Israel awaits their sins to be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19-21 KJV). The apostle Paul confirms it in Romans 11.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

That is FUTURE. It is not happening today. It will not happen until the Body of Christ is taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2:7) by the catching up (1 Thes. 4:16-18 KJV) and then the prophetic clock will resume with the time of Jacob's trouble, the Great Tribulation.

As for today, God is not dealing with a nation, but a filling up of a mystery Body by the foolishness of preaching (not foolishness preaching 1 Corinthians 1:18-21 KJV) of a mystery gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Romans 16:25-27 KJV, Galatians 1:11-12 KJV) extended to even the likes of people like you and me (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV, Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV).

The doctrine written directly to the church, the Body of Christ is found in the form of sound words (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV) of Romans through Philemon.

I joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, to be in the Body of Christ after trusting Him believing the word of truth (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV) by Whom we have NOW (presently and already) received the atonement!

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

I just did.

Leave it to JS to jump to conclusions and conveniently omit that Israel's salvation was/will be dependent upon them doing something by faith (James 2:18 KJV):

Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV), keep the commandments (John 14:15 KJV, Matthew 23:2-3 KJV, John 15:5-10 KJV), endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22 KJV), go through the trial of their faith (1 Peter 1:7 KJV), receiving the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls (1 Peter 1:9 KJV). That salvation is of the grace that "should" come unto them (Acts 15:11 KJV, 1 Peter 1:10 KJV).

Great job, Heir. It see now why it has bothered me when Jerry says "The Jews that lived under the law...." Of course, the law is filled with IFs. That's the whole point. Awesome job here and Jerry can whine til the cows come home that no one has answered him, but if I can get it, anyone can.

I realize people use John 3:16 all the time for preaching the Gospel. I did myself for years.....and it's a true statement. The fact that it's in John, though, means it is not a stand alone statement like Jerry would have everyone believe. Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel. Matt. 15:24

And that's why that particular verse was for them. The IFs aren't mentioned, but they are there....Jerry can't claim someone is under the law without those IFs. :chuckle:



So, you need to look at Paul's gospel to get away from those IFs that are contained in the law. Paul's gospel is not found in John 3:16. They may say the same, but they sure don't mean the same....because of the LAW.

Heir, I salute you. :e4e:

 

[glorydaz]

Hi , Jerry S , and John 3:16 by CONTEXT is written to Israel , so John 3:16 as does John 3:5 also belong to Jews !!

How will you defend the Greek word WORLD / KOSMOS since it has many meaning and is a Transliteralation ?

Many then believe those He is talking about , the WORLD / KOSMOS of the enslaved jews under ROME !!

DAN P

And you, too. I salute you. :e4e:

 

[glorydaz]

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
this refers to :
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
Psa 32:3 For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long.

which was God forgiving David for murder and adultery


faith with works

2Sa 24:25 And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the LORD was intreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel.


what fact ?


Abram's first covenant was faith only Gen 15:5-6
Abraham's second covenant had works and faith Gen 17:5 Gen 17:10



I know the Jews under the law had to offer sin offerings
Lev 4:25 Lev 4:29

And you have done an excellent job. You have not let him off the hook, and I finally see why you've been posting what you have here about Saul and David. It's the LAW. :thumb:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And you have done an excellent job. You have not let him off the hook, and I finally see why you've been posting what you have here about Saul and David. It's the LAW.

Here we see that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

You still do not know the principle that if it is of works then it cannot be said to be by grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

I showed you this the other day but evidently you are unable to learn these facts about being saved by "grace." You continue to insist that the Jews who lived under the law and who were saved by grace could not be saved apart from works.

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim.3:7).​

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Here we see that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

You still do not know the principle that if it is of works then it cannot be said to be by grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

I showed you this the other day but evidently you are unable to learn these facts about being saved by "grace." You continue to insist that the Jews who lived under the law and who were saved by grace could not be saved apart from works.

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim.3:7).​

Jerry S is very good at making false accusations. However, "Truth saying" isn't his forte!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry S is very good at making false accusations. However, "Truth saying" isn't his forte!

Why did you quote my comments about the Jews who were saved by grace through faith and then just IGNORE everything which I said?

Of course you have no interest in discussing what the Bible says about these things because you only purpose at this point is to assassinate my character in the hope that no one will notice that none of you have an answer to what is said about Romans 4:16.

 

[way 2 go]

Here we see that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

here we see that Jews that didn't keep the Sabbath
were to be put to death.
Was it OK Jerry to ignore that law, because back then they
had the letters of Paul and john 3:16

Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death

Was it OK Jerry to ignore that law?


Num 15:32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation.
Num 15:34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Was it OK Jerry to ignore that law?

I never said that it was OK but you must understand the primary reason the Lord gave the law to the Jews:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation" (Ex.19:5-6).​

On the other hand, those who lived under the law were saved individually by grace, as witnessed by Peter's words here:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).​

Peter, who lived under the law, was saved by the grace of God. That means "works" played no part in his salvation:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

 

[Lighthouse]

Everlasting life was something to be obtained. The question is, when did those in the Kingdom obtain it?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Everlasting life was something to be obtained. The question is, when did those in the Kingdom obtain it?

The Jews who lived under the law received everlasting life the very moment when they believed. The Lord Jesus told those Jews the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believeth" and the Greek word translated "hath" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received everlasting life.

 

[Delmar]

I challenge you to quote me saying that.

If that is not what you were saying, I sure don't get the point of this thread :idunno:

 

[musterion]

Every time I bring John 3:16 up to the Neo-MADs I never get an answer. They refuse to give their interpretation of the meaning of that verse.

In 1 John 1:9, he was reiterating Lev 26:40-41 and 2 Chron 6:24-30. The conditional forgiveness he describes is right out of the Law and cannot be reconciled with the plenary past tense forgiveness of Col 1:13, Col 2:13, and Col 3:13, which we have under grace.

How is 1 Jn 1:9 squared with John 3:16?

Law or grace. Pick one.

 

[musterion]

Also, Jerry, I don't remember where I found this quote but I've had it saved for awhile:

"In prophecy 'eternal life' is used over and over as a reference to the Kingdom."

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire (Mark 9:43, 45, 47)

cf Matthew 19:16-23, 28-29

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Why did you quote my comments about the Jews who were saved by grace through faith and then just IGNORE everything which I said?

Of course you have no interest in discussing what the Bible says about these things because you only purpose at this point is to assassinate my character in the hope that no one will notice that none of you have an answer to what is said about Romans 4:16.

You don't tell GM what to do and how to do it! If I don't wish
to answer one or more of your posts, that's my prerogative.

Make all the assumptions and conclusions you want. You're
not gonna get me all frazzled. My existence on planet earth
doesn't depend on you. If you think it does, then, you need
to get a life. Look to someone else for your answers. I'm
not gonna babysit you. :nananana:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

This is about the most pitiful thing I have ever seen!

No. The most pitiful thing I've ever seen is, any and all of your posts!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If I don't wish
to answer one or more of your posts, that's my prerogative.

I hope you just go away.

You refuse to defend your position and the only reason you do post in response to what I say is to attack my character.

The antithesis of Christian behavior.

You must be proud of yourself!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I hope you just go away.

You refuse to defend your position and the only reason you do post in response to what I say is to attack my character.

The antithesis of Christian behavior.

You must be proud of yourself!

What character? Oh. Wait a second? I change my mind. "You are a character, alright.

 

[glorydaz]

What character? Oh. Wait a second? I change my mind. "You are a character, alright.

:rotfl:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What character? Oh. Wait a second? I change my mind. "You are a character, alright.

Yours is the antithesis of Christian behavior:

"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph.4:1-3).​

You know nothing about "peace" because you attack the character of those who would dare disagree with you.

You are an embarrassment to Christianity.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yours is the antithesis of Christian behavior:

"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph.4:1-3).​

You know nothing about "peace" because you attack the character of those who would dare disagree with you.

You are an embarrassment to Christianity.

:baby: If ya can't take the heat, get outta Dodge Jerry S.