Theology Club: Why Will No One in the Neo-MAD Camp Address John 3:16?

[Jerry Shugart]

The little flock was redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and their sins will be blotted out on the day of atonement.

So even though the sins of the Jews are said to be on the Lord's Jesus' body they have not been taken away from them?

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

You are kidding, right?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"Uninformed" means you have not studied The Original MAD Cathecism co-authored by Andersen and O'Hair.

No, being uninformed is referring to people like you who have been taught that they Jews who lived under the law could not be saved by faith alone. You are uninformed because the Savior Himself said the following to those who lived under the law, and anyone who is informed understands that He tells them that if they 'believed" they are saved:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

You are uninformed because you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why is 1 John 1:9 part mof the Body of Christ and not even mentioned there at all ??

Let us look at to whom 1 Corinthians was addressed:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore this epistle is written to them. And here is what Paul said to every Jewish believer in every place:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

So according to Paul all the believers living in every place were members of the Body of Christ. That means that John's words here is for those who belong to the Body of Christ:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Let us look at to whom 1 Corinthians was addressed:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore this epistle is written to them. And here is what Paul said to every Jewish believer in every place:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

So according to Paul all the believers living in every place were members of the Body of Christ. That means that John's words here is for those who belong to the Body of Christ:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Hey Jerry S, here are the books that are written to
The Body of Christ: Romans through Philemon.
Anything outside of Paul's Epistles concerns the
House of Israel and the Kingdom Message.

 

[musterion]

Why didn't you respond to the verses which I quoted from Paul at 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 1 Corinthians 12:13?

Because Paul said nothing there (or anywhere else) about our needing to be confessing sins in order to have them forgiven. I have nothing to say to eisegetes.

So according to Paul all the believers living in every place were members of the Body of Christ. That means that John's words here is for those who belong to the Body of Christ:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Then so are these:

And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep his commandments.

But Paul said we don't know Him according to the flesh; only per the revelation of the mystery.

By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

But Paul told us to follow his example of following Christ.

But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you.

But Paul said God had appointed teachers in the Body of Christ.

If you know that He is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him.

But Paul called the Corinthians 'saints' even though many of them were proudly practicing unrighteousness.

Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;

But Paul said while his conscience was clear, that did not acquit him as his only confidence before God was in Christ, and "indeed, I do not even judge myself."

and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

But Paul said we often don't know what to pray for aright, and made no guarantee that God would grant what we ask -- only that He would garrison our hearts with His peace.

Whoever keeps His commandments abides in God, and God in him.

But Paul did not say keeping any of God's commandments kept us abiding in Him, or Him in us.

More could be posted but the point should be clear: if you're going to take 1 Jn 1:9 on board, you have to take all he taught, but at the cost of being unable to harmonize much of it with what Christ revealed through Paul. Of all people, a mid-Acts dispensationalist is supposed to know that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because Paul said nothing there (or anywhere else) about our needing to be confessing sins in order to have them forgiven. I have nothing to say to eisegetes.

You evidently believe that 1 John 1:9 is not for those in the Body of Christ even though at 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13 Paul made it plain that the ones who received 1 John 1:9 are members of the Body of Christ.

And that is why you refuse to deal with what Paul said at 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13. You just ignore verses which contradict your ideas.

Paul nowhere told us to "keep our feet clean" or "keep short accounts" by confessing our sins.

This is not speaking of keeping ourselves clean?:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

He told us to judge ourselves, and that is exactly the same thing as confessing (admitting) our sins to ourselves:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:29-32).​

If we fail to judge ourselves or admit our sins to ourselves then we will be chastened of the Lord. Do you ever "judge" yourself and what is it that you are judging yourself about?

If you believe confession maintains that forgiveness and cleansing (and if you are honest and take John at his word, you have to) then not only are you using the same logic of Lordship Salvationists but are preaching salvation conditionally obtained/maintained by the work of confession.

That's a false gospel.

1 John 1:9 is not about salvation and you have offered no proof that it is about salvation. Do you tell the unsaved that if they will confess their sins then those sins will be remitted and they will be cleansed from unrighteousness. Here is how Peter said that the remission of sins happens for the unsaved:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

So the words at 1 John 1:9 are written to those who are already saved.

So how about entry into the earthly Kingdom = entry into life? You going to keep ignoring that?

I have already addressed entry into the resurrection of life. And in order to enter the earthly kingdom one had to be born again (Jn.3:3-5) and Peter says that one is born again by the word of God, the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23-25).​

The Jews to whom those words were addressed were born again by the word and no works were involved.

I have answered many of your points so please answer my question concerning these words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Do you agree with me that the Lord was telling them that if they "believed" then they would be saved.

If your answer is "no" then tell me why you don't agree.

John gives us the proof; he did not say "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to keep us in fellowship with Him."

The "context" where those words are found is in regard to "fellowship."

The issue isn't fellowship but FORGIVENESS AND CLEANSING, whereas Paul says we're 100% forgiven and clean in Christ -- as righteous before God as the Son is.

Again, you confuse our "standing" with our "walk." And these words refer to our "walk":

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

In our "standing" before God we are risen together with Christ and are sitting together with Him in heavenly places and our life is hid with Christ in God. We are completely identified with the Lord Jesus in our "standing.

Our actual "walk" is a different matter altogether. You don't appear to be able to distinguish between the two.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hey Jerry S, here are the books that are written to
The Body of Christ: Romans through Philemon.
Anything outside of Paul's Epistles concerns the
House of Israel and the Kingdom Message.

just because you say so means nothing. You haven't been right about anything yet.

 

[Danoh]

Well, there's the rub, Musti, in Jerry we're dealing with a supposed Mid-Acts Dispensationalist.

At the same time, you have voiced some views I don't hold to, and visa versa I'm sure.

Thing is that we explore them only if we are so inclined. Not hound after others for decades now - as Jerry has done - browbeating everyone.

Lol, he should have invested all that time attempting to learn how to properly study these things out.

Instead, he's wasted it in books about this and that - very old ones at that - and in figuring out how to best brow beat those he disagrees with before ever knowing their view.

Talk about running up a slippery sloap backwards, in rubbery slippers, on a rainy day, lol

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Well, there's the rub, Musti, in Jerry we're dealing with a supposed Mid-Acts Dispensationalist.

Why don't you help Musti out and answer my points since he is determined to ignore the verses which prove that those who received John's first epistle were members of the Body of Christ?

Let us look at to whom 1 Corinthians was addressed:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore this epistle is written to them. And here is what Paul said to every Jewish believer in every place:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

So according to Paul all the believers living in every place were members of the Body of Christ. That means that those who received John's first epistle were members of the Body of Christ.

I can understand why Musti wants nothing to do with what Paul said in those two verses so why don't you help him out and address what Paul said in those two verses?

I am sure that he would appreciate if you would address those two verses so don't let him down.

 

[Danoh]

Why don't you help Musti out and answer my points since he is determined to ignore the verses which prove that those who received John's first epistle were members of the Body of Christ?

Let us look at to whom 1 Corinthians was addressed:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore this epistle is written to them. And here is what Paul said to every Jewish believer in every place:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

So according to Paul all the believers living in every place were members of the Body of Christ. That means that those who received John's first epistle were members of the Body of Christ.

I can understand why Musti wants nothing to do with what Paul said in those two verses so why don't you help him out and address what Paul said in those two verses?

I am sure that he would appreciate if you would address those two verses so don't let him down.

Must you attempt to belittle them because you hold a different view - they are our brethren, you pseudo Mid-Actser, lol

If he wants to know my view he can ask me. Find someone else to bait Jerry Ssssssss.

 

[musterion]

Why don't you help Musti out and answer my points since he is determined to ignore the verses which prove that those who received John's first epistle were members of the Body of Christ?

There are points where Paul's teachings do not line up with John's, as was just pointed out. We of the Body cannot depend on confessing sins if we wish to be forgiven and cleansed from unrighteousness AND, at the same time, be completely forgiven all sins and have the righteousness of Christ Himself. Thesw prospects are incompatible; both cannot be true for us.

John was a circumcision apostle.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

just because you say so means nothing. You haven't been right about anything yet.

Take a closer look, I believe it was you that has never gotten
ANYTHING right. In fact, I'm certain.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Jerry S is a guy who believes he knows everything, although, he knows
very little. Poor man.

 

[DAN P]

Let us look at to whom 1 Corinthians was addressed:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore this epistle is written to them. And here is what Paul said to every Jewish believer in every place:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

So according to Paul all the believers living in every place were members of the Body of Christ. That means that John's words here is for those who belong to the Body of Christ:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Hi and the things that created this impasse is because you still see Pentecost in your theology !!

There is no BODY in the Gospels nor from Hebrews through the Revelation !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and the things that created this impasse is because you still see Pentecost in your theology !!

There is no BODY in the Gospels nor from Hebrews through the Revelation !!

You just refuse to believe what Paul said at 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13.

And tell me what Pentecost has to do with what Paul said in those verses.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry S is a guy who believes he knows everything, although, he knows
very little. Poor man.

I can understand what Paul is saying at 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13.

Evidently you cannot and that is why you refuse to address those verses!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There are points where Paul's teachings do not line up with John's, as was just pointed out.

We can get to those verses later but I am still waiting for you to respond to my remarks about what you said earlier:

Because Paul said nothing there (or anywhere else) about our needing to be confessing sins in order to have them forgiven. I have nothing to say to eisegetes.

You evidently believe that 1 John 1:9 is not for those in the Body of Christ even though at 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13 Paul made it plain that the ones who received 1 John 1:9 are members of the Body of Christ.

And that is why you refuse to deal with what Paul said at 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13. You just ignore verses which contradict your ideas.

Paul nowhere told us to "keep our feet clean" or "keep short accounts" by confessing our sins.

This is not speaking of keeping ourselves clean?:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

He told us to judge ourselves, and that is exactly the same thing as confessing (admitting) our sins to ourselves:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:29-32).​

If we fail to judge ourselves or admit our sins to ourselves then we will be chastened of the Lord. Do you ever "judge" yourself and what is it that you are judging yourself about?

If you believe confession maintains that forgiveness and cleansing (and if you are honest and take John at his word, you have to) then not only are you using the same logic of Lordship Salvationists but are preaching salvation conditionally obtained/maintained by the work of confession.

That's a false gospel.

1 John 1:9 is not about salvation and you have offered no proof that it is about salvation. Do you tell the unsaved that if they will confess their sins then those sins will be remitted and they will be cleansed from unrighteousness. Here is how Peter said that the remission of sins happens for the unsaved:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

So the words at 1 John 1:9 are written to those who are already saved.

So how about entry into the earthly Kingdom = entry into life? You going to keep ignoring that?

I have already addressed entry into the resurrection of life. And in order to enter the earthly kingdom one had to be born again (Jn.3:3-5) and Peter says that one is born again by the word of God, the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23-25).​

The Jews to whom those words were addressed were born again by the word and no works were involved.

I have answered many of your points so please answer my question concerning these words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Do you agree with me that the Lord was telling them that if they "believed" then they would be saved.

If your answer is "no" then tell me why you don't agree.

John gives us the proof; he did not say "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to keep us in fellowship with Him."

The "context" where those words are found is in regard to "fellowship."

The issue isn't fellowship but FORGIVENESS AND CLEANSING, whereas Paul says we're 100% forgiven and clean in Christ -- as righteous before God as the Son is.

Again, you confuse our "standing" with our "walk." And these words refer to our "walk":

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

In our "standing" before God we are risen together with Christ and are sitting together with Him in heavenly places and our life is hid with Christ in God. We are completely identified with the Lord Jesus in our "standing.

Our actual "walk" is a different matter altogether. You don't appear to be able to distinguish between the two.

You continue to ignore all the points which I made earlier to your misguided comments. I answered all of your earlier comments but you answered NONE of mine!

Perhaps this time you will actually respond to my remarks.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Take a closer look, I believe it was you that has never gotten
ANYTHING right. In fact, I'm certain.

I got something right when I said that those who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone. And these are His words spoken to those who lived under the law where He makes it plain that those who "believed" were saved:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

He spoke of "faith" being the only thing needed in order to be saved.

But do you not argue, as do those in the Neo-MAD camp, that the Jews who lived under the law had to believe and do works in order to be saved?

I got the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words at John 5:24 right and you did not. You can't even understand the most simple things revealed in the Bible.

 

[musterion]

We can get to those verses later

Yeah.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yeah.

What is it with most of those within the Neo-MAD camp?

The expect you to answer every one of the verses which they quote but they refuse to address even one of the ones others quote?

Because Paul said nothing there (or anywhere else) about our needing to be confessing sins in order to have them forgiven. I have nothing to say to eisegetes.

You refuse to believe what Paul said in the following two verses because you know that those verses destroy your silly ideas. And that is why you refuse to deal with them and instead run and hide from them.

Let us look at to whom 1 Corinthians was addressed:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

All of the Jewish believers living in the first century did indeed call on the name of Jesus Christ so therefore this epistle is written to them. And here is what Paul said to every Jewish believer in every place:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

So according to Paul all the believers living in every place were members of the Body of Christ. That means that those who received John's first epistle were members of the Body of Christ.

I have answered numerous of your points but you refuse to even attempt to deal with Paul wrote here. Then you want to change the subject from these words of Paul and run off to something else as fast as you can.

Step up to the plate like a man and address what Paul said.