Interplanner
Well-known member
So find something in Mt 19, ROm 7, I Cor 7, Heb 13 inconsistent with Prager.
Where on earth do you get the theology of giving thanks for food makes it clean?
So find something in Mt 19, ROm 7, I Cor 7, Heb 13 inconsistent with Prager.
Cherry picked doctrine is the talk of fools.
1 Timothy 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
I DID. You gave it already.
We need to show evidence for our claims with actual quotations from scripture and other ancient manuscripts. We just cannot give out some proof text without context and then confidently assert what it means without objective proof.
No one should be throwing out their personal theological conjectures. History is different than theology. Theology makes a meaning of historical events. For example, Jesus was crucified by Pilate. That is a historical FACT. Jesus died on the cross for humankind's sin--THAT is a theological conclusion from the facts.
All we have is the gospels themselves and some valuable contextual evidence from other ancient writings at the time. Scholars and serious readers have to admit that.
You have dismissed this literal evidence of mine as "heresay" without any proof or example whatsoever.
It looks to me like you have either been backed into a corner and don't want to admit it or you have no idea what "rightly dividing" the Bible and other ancient manuscripts entails. Or maybe even both.
Lol...Jesus does not say that.
Luke 16:18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Rightly dividing is a term I absolutely hate because it has been used for so much evil.. and is still the cause of so much evil in the world.
Anyhow, it is obvious from the early writings that even the early Christians were not as certain about divorce as a few people are on this site.
I think the removal of the verses from the context of Jesus day is one of the main causes of people not wanting to actually research the 'why' of Jesus words. They just take what looks like a plain reading and say 'that's it'.
Then you have the even crazier people that believe in KJV-Onlyism which further removes the context and culture from the interpretation... afterall, to them the english words are perfectly translated and a study of the context is meaningless to them.
Then there is the issue that the verses that are used are Jesus directly speaking to non-christian Jews that were bound to their understanding of the Levitical law.. and he responded to them. We are not bound to the levitical law so is Christs response to those who were applicable to Christians?.. Personally, I do not think so because that would tie us to the Old Covenant law and we would be judged as Jews instead of Christians.
Anyhow, if you know your history of ancient Christianity, you would know that negative affects of the ascetics and stoics on a lot of their writings. Non-Christian Greek reasoning permeated and polluted the body very on.
Anyhow, I have not seen a single post in this thread that has actually taken a serious in-depth analysis from a 1st century point of view. I also feel that most people's simple translation of these verses are based upon what they want.. not what Christ wanted. There is a sizable group within Christianity that measure their comfort and righteousness solely on what they believe are Christian social norms.
Anyhow, that is really I all I have to say on this subject... the vast majority of so called Christians are unknowingly working for the evil one and they do not know it.
:yawn: Your way is superior to our Lord's (1 Co 2:14, Ro 2:15). :idunno: Payday someday (Ro 14:12). opcorn:[Marriage a permanent bond (Matt. 19:6), dissolved by death (Rom. 7:2, 3)] "Cherry picked doctrine is the talk of fools."
Jesus view of marriage, as I read it, is based on a "unity principle" ("the two becoming one") which refers to sexual intercourse. When two people marry and have sexual intercourse they become ONE. This unity remains intact even when they do not get along, even, in fact, when they separate or divorce. Because God still sees them as "one" with their divorced spouse, IF they marry and establish a new "unity" with a new spouse they have in the act of intercourse broken the older unity and, in effect, are guilty of adultery. It therefore follows that whoever marries them contributes to the dissolution of their previous unity and also commits adultery. Unless this simple principle is kept in mind Jesus teaching on marriage seems almost Talmudic in its complexity .
A lot of our misconceptions center around the modern concept that sex is something separate from the soul. It is, instead, an activity merely of the body rather like physical exercise. It is recreational, for personal pleasure and is naturally to be engaged in after any particularly successful date (if the media are to be believed). Our God does not see it that way, and in many ways some of our ancient forbears in the Faith saw it clearer than we do.
The Church Fathers had a hard time dealing with it, as do modern Pastors. However, they were less compromising than a lot of modern pastors (in my experience) who, in an effort to be compassionate will marry and ordain people who did not divorce for legitimate reasons (such as immorality) without even making inquiries. I have seen ministries ordain and send as their representatives people whom I happened to know were unrepentant adulterers. Of course, while those ministries probably knew their agent was divorced they may not have known the reasons. Would it have mattered to them? In most cases, I seriously doubt it.
Sometimes, though, the legal termination of a marriage is the only way to prevent violence to a spouse and/or the children. Marriage problems, separation, divorce and remarriage lead to animosity and even murder not to mention the cost in emotional damage. I often work with these families and see up close the effect it has.
Rightly dividing is a term I absolutely hate because it has been used for so much evil.. and is still the cause of so much evil in the world.
Anyhow, it is obvious from the early writings that even the early Christians were not as certain about divorce as a few people are on this site.
I think the removal of the verses from the context of Jesus day is one of the main causes of people not wanting to actually research the 'why' of Jesus words. They just take what looks like a plain reading and say 'that's it'.
Then you have the even crazier people that believe in KJV-Onlyism which further removes the context and culture from the interpretation... afterall, to them the english words are perfectly translated and a study of the context is meaningless to them.
Then there is the issue that the verses that are used are Jesus directly speaking to non-christian Jews that were bound to their understanding of the Levitical law.. and he responded to them. We are not bound to the levitical law so is Christs response to those who were applicable to Christians?.. Personally, I do not think so because that would tie us to the Old Covenant law and we would be judged as Jews instead of Christians.
Anyhow, if you know your history of ancient Christianity, you would know that negative affects of the ascetics and stoics on a lot of their writings. Non-Christian Greek reasoning permeated and polluted the body very on.
Anyhow, I have not seen a single post in this thread that has actually taken a serious in-depth analysis from a 1st century point of view. I also feel that most people's simple translation of these verses are based upon what they want.. not what Christ wanted. There is a sizable group within Christianity that measure their comfort and righteousness solely on what they believe are Christian social norms.
Anyhow, that is really I all I have to say on this subject... the vast majority of so called Christians are unknowingly working for the evil one and they do not know it.
Its not a 'hard' teaching.... its an error in your teaching and you will be held accountable for it one day.
We are not in bondage based on our bad choices... and God does not support is in our bad choices.
Christ died to give us freedom from people like you who truly do not understand what Christ called us to do.
The above contradicts the bondage you preach... you are a millstone around people's necks and anyone that follows you will drown along with you...
Luke 16:18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Matthew 5:32 NASB
but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Tell me, why is she an adulterer if HER HUSBAND DIVORCED HER?
Why is the person who marries her an adulterer?
You are going against God's Truth.
PneumaPsucheSoma-
Thanks for your support... these issues are extremely difficult and its really hard dealing with people that refuse to do their homework.
Husbands are told to love... wives are told to submit. So they are not interchangable.
What do you do if you have a wife that is intent on doing her own thing and submit to the authority of her husband... and you have had both sets of parents and the church involved in it for many a year... yet she refuses to submit?
Basically she has proven herself to be a non-christian and you should not be unequally yoked.
Because marriage and divorce was very different back them... its too bad you refuse to acknowledge that.
Jesus' words STAND FOREVER.