Why Homosexuality Must NOT Be Criminalized

[ok doser]

Weren't you still married when you were chatting up that librarian you spoke about?

:think:

dude - you really are a retard

i feel sorry for you

 

[Arthur Brain]

dude - you really are a retard

i feel sorry for you

Oh dear, obviously struck a nerve there then...

 

[ok doser]

Oh dear, obviously struck a nerve there then...

nah - just tired of your retardedness




have you been drinking again?

 

[Arthur Brain]

nah - just tired of your retardedness

have you been drinking again?

Hmm, definitely struck a nerve then. It's not as though you weren't shy about this librarian either, in fact you were rather brazen about it...

Tambora had you on adultery rather recently as well so not a wise move to bring it up really...

I've just cracked open a bottle of vintage so, yes I am drinking.

Cheers!

:cheers:

 

[ok doser]

Hmm, definitely struck a nerve then.

if it makes you happy to think so :idunno:

 

[Arthur Brain]

if it makes you happy to think so :idunno:

Not especially. It would make me happier if you quit with all the stalking and trolling as the forum would be a better place and you'd benefit from not being banned so much.

 

[ok doser]

Not especially.

and yet you keep mentioning it :think:

 

[glassjester]

You go on about ancient Greece as if heterosexual relations were a rarity...

No I don't. I go on about it like they engaged in heterosexual and homosexual relations frequently, and had no concept of sexual orientations, which is only a social construct.

If you're heterosexual then it's either going to be a single or married person of the opposite sex then. The only moralistic part is whether to pursue such a course or not, not the attraction itself.

No way, Jose. If a person suddenly appears less attractive to you, because you found out they're married, then your morals played into that decrease in attraction.

Dude, you're a guy who tells me I can train myself to enjoy insipid, bland pop music and won't admit to being sooooooooooo wrong about that. So your fixation on Greece really doesn't mean very much...

Yes. Specifically, Beyonce. More specifically, Single Ladies by Beyonce.

Do you agree with Mr. Dante, that if you'd been raised in ancient Greece, you'd "still be straight" ?

 

[Arthur Brain]

No I don't. I go on about it like they engaged in heterosexual and homosexual relations frequently, and had no concept of sexual orientations, which is only a social construct.

When I was five I had no concept of 'social constructions' and yet I knew I saw girls differently than I did boys.

No way, Jose. If a person suddenly appears less attractive to you, because you found out they're married, then your morals played into that decrease in attraction.

Not relevant to the gender of the person I'd be attracted to in the first place.

Yes. Specifically, Beyonce. More specifically, Single Ladies by Beyonce.

Do you agree with Mr. Dante, that if you'd been raised in ancient Greece, you'd "still be straight" ?

I would sooner listen to my fridge as at least there might be some interesting sounds on occasion. I'm hoping you're not really being serious on this anymore but just in case you are...nooooooooooooo.

As regards your latter then yes. Nobody 'taught' me to like the opposite sex.

 

[glassjester]

The only moralistic part is whether to pursue such a course or not, not the attraction itself.

Yes it does.

No matter how attractive a man's sister is, he will remain disgusted at the thought of sexual relations with her. He will not be attracted to her. At all.

That's morals and culture dictating your attractions, right there.

 

[glassjester]

As regards your latter then yes. Nobody 'taught' me to like the opposite sex.

And nobody taught the Greek men to like men?

So were they all born that way?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yes it does.

No matter how attractive a man's sister is, he will remain disgusted at the thought of sexual relations with her. He will not be attracted to her. At all.

That's morals and culture dictating your attractions, right there.

If you grow up as brother and sister then the family dynamic has an impact sure. Not sure how this equates to attraction itself however. You could find your best mates wife attractive and decide not to act on any impulse. Again, the attraction itself is not a choice.

 

[Arthur Brain]

And nobody taught the Greek men to like men?

So were they all born that way?

Who taught the Greek men to like women in turn?

 

[glassjester]

Who taught the Greek men to like women in turn?

Their culture, society, peers, families.

All the same factors that taught them to pursue men sexually.


You didn't answer.
Do you think they were all born that way?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Justice is not dependant on time. What was moral then is moral now and what was immoral then is immoral now.

Malachi 3:And I will come near you for judgment;
I will be a swift witness
Against sorcerers,
Against adulterers,
Against perjurers,
Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans,
And against those who turn away an alien—
Because they do not fear Me,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.​

And yet laws change, like the abolition of slavery for example. Is that a bad thing? Do you think slavery should still be permissible in a modern day age?

Yes, not all of Israel's laws were of a moral nature. Many of them had to do with their religious practices which have no application outside the context of Israel as a nation in special covenant relationship with God. Since that relationship does not currently exist, even for Israel itself, there is, therefore, no proper legal application of those statutes. The concept is rather simple but it is not always easy to tell for certain whether one particular law or another is moral in nature or only applied because of Israel's special relationship with God. Most of the laws, however, are easy - rather obvious even.

Then why isn't it set in concrete as to which laws solely pertain to Israel and those that don't? Otherwise it's more speculation than anything else and that's a dangerous thing to have where it comes to laws don't you think?

You ask questions as though these issues are matters of opinion. They are not! I would draw the line where God draws it. The only reason you don't want to draw the same line is that somewhere inside, you have the idea that God is unjust. You think that God is mean and nasty and hates people, or at least that's what you feel when you consider the notion that homosexuality is a capital crime.

No, I reason that set laws for certain times were set for those times and not applicable to modern societies but rather the communal. Among Christians there's hardly a consensus of opinion on the matter and nowadays we have age of consent laws, something that would hardly apply to people of that time either. Things change, and when they progress (as they have) for the better for the most part.

Without looking it up, what would you guess God's idea is about what the punishment should be for fornication?

For the time? I'm guessing it would be as harsh as the times themselves.

The closest thing we'll ever see to a perfect criminal justice system is the one God devised.

And it's perfectly tenable. What would be untenable about it? You enact the law and when someone breaks it, you try them and punish them upon conviction. It would work just fine. If anything today's modern society would make it easier.

Then that's just myopic. If you were to have a society where homosexuality, fornication and adultery were capital crimes then just how much manpower would be exerted in investigating all of the inevitable cases of such 'crimes'? You're naive at best if you think this would be tenable in our society. Even with the advent of CCTV and surveillance it would be impractical to police.

How so?

To begin with, there would be a whole lot less crime going on because the punishments called for in the bible actually would deter crime. In addition, much of today's violent crime as well as many other our societal ills come as a result of our failure to enforce the moral laws called for in the bible.

You already have a death penalty and yet you still have a constant array of people on 'death row'. You might want to speed up the process but unless you're willing to do away with all appeal processes then that's not going to happen. If you were willing to do that then you'd be executing a good deal of innocent people in the process as despite it being one of the better systems in the world the US judiciary system still gets it wrong. Now you add homosexuality and fornication into the mix then you're really in la la land if you think any of this could be imposed on any sort of practical level in itself, not to mention the furore that would likely spark a revolution if it were actually tried.

This is speculation but I'd predict that if you enacted just laws in this country, we'd drop from the hundreds of thousands of murders every year down to something less than a thousand.

Then again, I'd say you're naive.

No I wouldn't!

See what I mean? You think God is an unjust buly who wants to invade everyone's privacy.

For consistency you would have to, and I don't consider God as a bully, in fact I don't even consider you or others of the same ilk to be so, but rather puritans who vent out this kind of stuff knowing full well why it it won't happen and also why it couldn't work.

Homsexuality and adultery et. al. were crimes in this country for many decades and have been against the law throughout western culture for centuries. The laws worked just fine.

Laws change, and when a society progresses for the better then those laws reflect that. I'm sure there were those who were chagrined when slavery was abolished and women were allowed the vote. A pretty safe bet that there were plenty who thought the 'laws worked just fine' then as well...

Is that what you think Israel was for centuries? This is just rediculous! Dystopian societies are created by unjust laws and liberalism, not the other way around.

From a modern day perspective, with all the creature comforts and luxuries we have in the West, then pretty much any communal society would likely feel like a dystopia...oh, and Uganda is hardly "liberal" either. Neither is '1984'...

There is no society that could be more free than that who's laws are just. You live in a society where people are literally free to be criminals and to perform actions that God Himself said where not merely sins but crimes worthy of death (in both the Old AND New Testaments of the Bible).

No, I live in a society that thankfully isn't some kind of warped 'police state' and where people are allowed to have private lives without some sort of 'death knell' hanging over them if they don't match up to puritanical standards of living. As an aside, what do you think Jesus was writing on the ground when the mob who were willing to stone the 'adulterous woman' gradually slinked away? Convicted by their conscience no less? No need to go into it being a legal trap or anything, heard all that, just what convicted these people do you think?

You seem like a reasonable person. I encourage you to think this through more thoroughly. Ask yourself, if such laws would create a dystopian society, why is there no indication that any such soceity existed in Israel? Ask yourself why you are so set against a legal system that you've never bothered to familarize yourself with. And stop listening to conventional wisdom on such issues! Take notice when people imply that God is unjust. Take notice when they make arguments about things that pertain to a society under just laws that would only apply in today's society which has unjust laws (i.e. category error). Actually put some effort into actually thinking through why you think the laws against immoral acts that God Himself enacted wouldn't work or would be unjust.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Thanks, I try to be and your comparison with Israel really doesn't work as I alluded to before. Like comparing apples and aardvarks. Nowadays we have 'meals in minutes', food at the touch of a button etc. So in the sense of the Modern West, then yeah, Israel would seem like a dystopian place to live. furthermore I don't hold the opinion I do because it may fit on some popular 'bandwagon' but because I firmly believe the persecution of homosexuals and their being executed to be fundamentally wrong, along with making any sexual 'sin' a capital crime outside of rape/molestation if such could be proven.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Their culture, society, peers, families.

All the same factors that taught them to pursue men sexually.


You didn't answer.
Do you think they were all born that way?

Did you need to be 'taught' to be attracted to the opposite sex? If so, how, and if not then when did you find yourself being attracted to women? When did you "choose" that moment?

 

[quip]

Did you need to be 'taught' to be attracted to the opposite sex? If so, how, and if not then when did you find yourself being attracted to women? When did you "choose" that moment?

They didn't. Homosexuals "choose" to go against the norm (heterosexuality) when they come out and dare to be honest with themselves and others to the fact that their natural attraction is to the same sex.

Simple really....equivocation notwithstanding.

 

[MrDante]

There wasn't one shred of evidence of homosexuality being innate when society was shaped to accept it, and now that it's succeeded they are rationalizing it to suffice their morality.

These people have used this tiny little vestige of society to bash Christianity and conservative values for way too long to still be getting away with it.

there sure is a lot of evidence now. But still not a shred of evidence that homosexuality is a choice or is a disease.

 

[MrDante]

So why did so many Greeks have "inborn" bisexuality?

They wern't.
Kenneth Dover. Greek Homosexuality. 1989
Bruce Thornton. Eros: The Myth of Ancient Greek Sexuality. 1997
David Halperin. One Hundred Years of Homosexuality: And Other Essays on Greek Love. 1990

 

[Crucible]

there sure is a lot of evidence now.

No there isn't. You all just fool yourselves, is all, with ideas. A person can be a doctor or scientist all day and still come up with nonsense, and so called studies of homosexuality show that very well.

But still not a shred of evidence that homosexuality is a choice or is a disease.

That's the default position, as homosexuality is utterly vain and is only sufficed through unnatural means.