And yet laws change, like the abolition of slavery for example. Is that a bad thing? Do you think slavery should still be permissible in a modern day age?
An excellent example of what I mean when I say that you think that God is unjust.
The bible NEVER condoned race-based slavery. Slavery in terms of biblical criminal justice had to do with paying debts with your labor when you couldn't afford to do so by other means. It is much closer to what we would call indentured servitude but the bible calls it slavery and so that term is fine with me so long as it's clear what is being discussed.
Then why isn't it set in concrete as to which laws solely pertain to Israel and those that don't? Otherwise, it's more speculation than anything else and that's a dangerous thing to have where it comes to laws don't you think?
It isn't anywhere near being more speculation than it is anything else. That's why I said that for most laws it's completely easy to tell the difference. Stealing is a moral issue, murder is a moral issue, sexual immorality is a moral issue, assault, kidnapping, trespassing, etc, etc, are all moral issues whereas things like circumcision, sabbath observance and how many doves to offer as a sacrifice for your sin are religious issues.
You can probably count on one hand the number of laws that the bible had in place for Israel that are somewhat difficult.
No, I reason that set laws for certain times were set for those times and not applicable to modern societies but rather the communal. Among Christians, there's hardly a consensus of opinion on the matter and nowadays we have age of consent laws, something that would hardly apply to people of that time either. Things change, and when they progress (as they have) for the better for the most part.
You deny believing that these are matter of opinion and then explain how they are not only a matter of opinion but of majority opinion! Matters of morality are NOT matters of opinion and they sure as Hell are not matters for a majority vote!
Contrary to your notion that a society's laws are a reflection of the society, it is the opposite, the society is a reflection of its laws. This is a consequence of Adam having eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It is, in fact, a primary theme of scripture and a major lesson of history taught in the pages of the bible.
For the time? I'm guessing it would be as harsh as the times themselves.
Why do you debate issues that you literally know nothing at all about?
God's idea for punishing a young couple who are caught fornicating is that they are required to get married. No whipping, no executions, no enslavement, no shunning, no nothing that is in anyway harsh except that the young man has to marry the girl he knocked up. Boy, God is just so harsh and terrible, isn't He!
Then that's just myopic. If you were to have a society where homosexuality, fornication, and adultery were capital crimes then just how much manpower would be exerted in investigating all of the inevitable cases of such 'crimes'? You're naive at best if you think this would be tenable in our society. Even with the advent of CCTV and surveillance it would be impractical to police.
You are making the error of thinking that in a society where such laws were in place that people would act like they do here where such laws are not in place.
It wouldn't take but about two public executions of adulterers and suddenly people would start to think that the risk-reward ratio is far enough weighted to the risk side that the secret fling they're having is no longer worth it.
If you stop housing and feeding murderers in places where they're allowed to still be bullies and beat people up from time to time and instead, start allowing their victim's families to publically and painfully execute them in whatever non-torturous manner they see fit, suddenly people will decide that maybe the $50 dollars in that guy's wallet isn't worth killing him over.
Not to mention the fact that when people stop cheating on their spouses, one of, if not THE most prominent motives for murder goes away.
The point being is the execution of capital crimes stops the people who remain alive from every committing the crime in the first place. It's a deterrent that actually works.
You already have a death penalty and yet you still have a constant array of people on 'death row'.
What passes for a death penalty in the country bears no resemblance to that taught in scripture. You are once again judging a just society from within the context of an unjust one. It is not a valid form of argument. You are basically arguing that apples can't be sweat because onions aren't.
You might want to speed up the process but unless you're willing to do away with all appeal processes then that's not going to happen.
The appeal process that exists in this country is entirely unjust. A person convicted of a capital crime should typically be dead before the sun sets on the day of their conviction.
If you were willing to do that then you'd be executing a good deal of innocent people in the process as despite it being one of the better systems in the world the US judiciary system still gets it wrong.
By what standard to you consider American jurist prudence to be the best in the world?
Under any system, you will have innocent people convicted and guilty people go free. Unlike what the American conventional wisdom is, neither of those is any better or preferable than the other. Both are unjust.
Ezekiel 13:19 And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?”
The key to minimizing this injustice is not endless appeals, it is a harsh deterrent to crime. The less crime that is committed the fewer false verdicts can happen. The current system sees tens of thousands of innocent people murdered precisely because what nearly indiscernible punishment that does exist for crimes is seemingly delayed forever and as a result has next to no deterrent effect whatsoever.
Now you add homosexuality and fornication into the mix then you're really in la la land if you think any of this could be imposed on any sort of practical level in itself, not to mention the furore that would likely spark a revolution if it were actually tried.
There is no moral equivalence between homosexuality and fornication. The fact that you think that the bible teaches otherwise is further proof that you believe God is unjust and that is the core of your disagreement with biblical law.
Further, whether or not it would spark a revolution is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Once again, morality is NOT a matter of opinion. Evil revolutions have happened many times throughout history. That doesn't mean that the people who were against the revolutionaries should have changed their position to prevent the revolution. Not doing the right thing for fear of the consequences is not a proper argument for any Christian or even any good citizen to make.
Then again, I'd say you're naive.
You can say what you like. Opinions are cheap. I have thousands of years worth of history and God's own words to back up what I say. What have you got?
For consistency you would have to, and I don't consider God as a bully, in fact I don't even consider you or others of the same ilk to be so, but rather puritans who vent out this kind of stuff knowing full well why it it won't happen and also why it couldn't work.
No, you would not have to invade anyone's privacy! GOD IS NOT UNJUST! You're starting to piss me off with this crap. There are all kinds of laws on our books right now that people commit IN PRIVATE! They get caught all the time and there's no need to invade anyone's privacy. There are about a million different ways that investigators can get probable cause without having to install cameras in every bedroom or any other such idiotic dystopian stupidity similar to it.
And yes, it will happen eventually. Not in this country but God Himself plans to come and rule the nations with an iron fist and will make the law honorable. (Isaiah 42:21 & Revelation 2:27)
And you keep saying it can't work. It already has worked in many countries for several centuries, not the least of which was Israel! The laws you read in the Old Testament where Israel's actual laws that governed their whole society for centuries.
Laws change, and when a society progresses for the better then those laws reflect that. I'm sure there were those who were chagrined when slavery was abolished and women were allowed the vote. A pretty safe bet that there were plenty who thought the 'laws worked just fine' then as well...
So if unjust laws worked just fine, by your own admission, how exactly are you arguing that just laws can't work? Or are you suggesting that the laws that enacted and supported race-based slavery were ineffective?
From a modern day perspective, with all the creature comforts and luxuries we have in the West, then pretty much any communal society would likely feel like a dystopia...oh, and Uganda is hardly "liberal" either. Neither is '1984'...
Communal society? Who in the world is advocating a communal society? Communes are Communist! Communes are dystopian by definition but Israel wasn't Communist or even Communistic. If anything they were Capitalists! Israel's laws included private property rights, free trade and required just compensation for services or goods rendered. Jesus taught directly that a man is allowed to do whatever he likes with his own money (Mattew 20:15).
No, I live in a society that thankfully isn't some kind of warped 'police state' and where people are allowed to have private lives without some sort of 'death knell' hanging over them if they don't match up to puritanical standards of living.
You live in a country with the highest percentage of its citizens in prison than any country in the history of history! The United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners.
You say we have the best system!
BY WHAT STANDARD?
As an aside, what do you think Jesus was writing on the ground when the mob who were willing to stone the 'adulterous woman' gradually slinked away? Convicted by their conscience no less? No need to go into it being a legal trap or anything, heard all that, just what convicted these people do you think?
Jesus is God Himself, Arthur! His statement, "Let him who has no sin, cast the first stone." was not Jesus making a suggestion. It was the King of Kings and Judge of all that lives giving a command. No stones were thrown for the same reason the wind stopped blowing in Matthew 8.
Thanks, I try to be and your comparison with Israel really doesn't work as I alluded to before. Like comparing apples and aardvarks. Nowadays we have 'meals in minutes', food at the touch of a button etc. So in the sense of the Modern West, then yeah, Israel would seem like a dystopian place to live.
This was frankly a stupid thing to say. I suggest that your reasonable and then you turn your mind off. By this reasoning, this country would've seemed to be a dystopian place to live 200 years ago. The advancement of technology has nothing to do with what is right and wrong. Armed robbery is wrong whether it's done with a Smith & Wesson M&P 40 or a stone axe.
furthermore I don't hold the opinion I do because it may fit on some popular 'bandwagon' but because I firmly believe the persecution of homosexuals and their being executed to be fundamentally wrong, along with making any sexual 'sin' a capital crime outside of rape/molestation if such could be proven.
Then why bother calling yourself a Christian?
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
32 ...knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Incidentally, Romans chapter 1 is in the New Testament and was written by the Apostle Paul, the Apostle of the Gospel of Grace. Imagine that!
Resting in Him,
Clete
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