ECT Which Gospel?

[turbosixx]

If you'll slow down and think on it a moment, you'll note I have been basing my assertions on more than one passage or two.

Do yourself a favor and do likewise as to those two passages you just asserted what you have about.

And do what the Lord did in Luke 24, and what the Spirit did through Peter - allow the OT to interpret intended sense of those two NT passages you have just cited in support of you off-base assertion.

Start by asking why the Lord said "Thus it behooved... and that repentance," etc., in Luke 24.

A clue - He was obviously referring to OT references as to the order of how their commission was to expand out to the nations from Jerusalem.

Try Mark 7:27's "first." Or Acts 3: 26's "first."

For that matter; why "beginning at Jerusalem?"

Let's cheat - let's actually rely on Scripture over our own notions - try Isaiah 2:1-5, or Isaiah 66.

I've been trying to understand what you and JW are saying. I have been studying the bible for years and this mad stuff is new to me and is just not adding up. All I rely on is scripture, all I know is what I read.

Yes, the gospel is for the Jew first. Just because it was first for them doesn't mean it's a different gospel than what Paul proclaimed. It's the same gospel, just a different audience. Paul proclaimed it to Jews also and Peter was the first to proclaim it to Gentiles.

 

[achduke]

I've been trying to understand what you and JW are saying. I have been studying the bible for years and this mad stuff is new to me and is just not adding up. All I rely on is scripture, all I know is what I read.

Yes, the gospel is for the Jew first. Why is that, because they were the ones that had the prophecies and were looking for the Messiah. Just because it was first for them doesn't mean it's a different gospel than what Paul proclaimed. It's the same gospel, just a different audience. Paul proclaimed it to Jews and Peter to Gentiles.

I have a similar background as you turbosixx as in reading from the bible and checking all beliefs against the bible. It is hard for me to understand and reason why they mostly listen to only to Paul. Paul's beliefs should only add to scripture and not replace it. Peter warned that Paul was hard to understand and people would twist his words.

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[turbosixx]

I have a similar background as you turbosixx as in reading from the bible and checking all beliefs against the bible. It is hard for me to understand and reason why they mostly listen to only to Paul. Paul's beliefs should only add to scripture and not replace it. Peter warned that Paul was hard to understand and people would twist his words.

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

I only read the bible and that way I'm not tainted with the perversions that men come up with.

Paul even went to the apostles to make sure he was proclaiming the same gospel.

Gal. 2:2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain......those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised .....9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship,

 

[Interplanner]

It was for the Jew first for reasons that would help the mission of the Gospel expand as rapidly as possible. A taste of this is Rom 10B-11 where the question is raised how will the world hear unless there are preachers, which returns Paul to the nagging mystery why so few Israelites believe. If they did they have some innate abilities and background that could help get the Gospel out rapidly to the world, which was Paul's interest.

 

[john w]

It is not made up. This was the just before Christ died. By the time of the Pentecost they were made to understand. Also notice Judas was not among them.


Luk 24:45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

Mark 16:11 And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe.

Mark 16:14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mat 28:20 "teaching them to observe ALL things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

"It is not made up."-you


Yes, it is. Slower-pay attention, to the "argument," that there is just one piece of good news, "gospel," in the book...



Everything taught in 1 Cor 15:1-4 was taught in the gospel before 1 Cor 15:1-4. The 11 did not understand it at the time until after Jesus had risen but it was still taught to them. Paul summed it up but it was all taught.
Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."-the "argument" the great saint John W is addressing-your post #243




The 12, including Judas, never preached, at least prior to its occurrence, in Mt.-John, the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV-this:

"Hey, everyone!!!! The Master is going to die for our sins...be buried, and raised again for our justification. Believe this good news to be saved!!!"


The dbr was hid from them, for almost 3 years. Peter, twice, attempted to prevent the Master's deaththe very death, that would reconcile him/others. After the resurrection, the 12, initially, did no believe that He had risen. And yet, during this time, the 12, including Judas, did preach the gospel/good news of the kingdom. Thus, the 12 were certainly not preaching 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, at least prior to its occurrence, and thus, the good news of the kingdom, is thus not equivalent to the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV.[/U]

 

[john w]

You being all knowing I thought you would be able to enlighten the rest of us.

Did Peter preach the gospel or the kingdom on Pentecost?

No, rummy, you asserted that I am to answer you. Show me that you know the book, as I do, and defend your "argument." We are all busy men/women. Now...

What verse demands that I answer any of your trap questions?

Yes or no: your saint Judas preached the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

I'm a director, here; you are one of the dancers.


We will wait....for any eternity-chapter, verse.

 

[heir]

So you agree he preached the gospel, dbr of Jesus.

When you say, "the gospel" I assume you are referring to the gospel of Christ. If so, the gospel of Christ is more than the "d,b,r". It is the why of the cross! It includes the fact that "Christ died for our sins".

 

[heir]

Peter preached the gospel, the DBR of Jesus that is able to forgive man's sins.

Peter preached a murder indictment to all the house of Israel, but that God hath raised Him up. That is NOT the same gospel that "Christ died for our sins"!

 

[heir]

Peter preached the gospel, the DBR of Jesus that is able to forgive man's sins.

The murder indictment:

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[Interplanner]

Heir,
you are out of line.
The reason the sermon piqued with their accusation was so they would ask their obvious question and get their obvious answer in v38. You are really a chopped up observer, between this and the New Covenant materials.

 

[Interplanner]

see post #23 here:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4388926&posted=1#post4388926

The kingdom/reign of God exists in the preaching of the Gospel, for the apostles. There is no 2nd message. See Rom 16's finale about how the power of the preaching is one of the "places" where God's reign is seen. The message and the preaching are made equal forces establishing the reign of God; the term 'command' in 26 about how the message clarifies the prophet's message is an 'epitagen' or royal decree from a king, so that all nations will believe and obey. Paul risked himself using that term because it was the same as used for many imperial decrees.

 

[Interplanner]

see post #23 here:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4388926&posted=1#post4388926

The kingdom/reign of God exists in the preaching of the Gospel, for the apostles. There is no 2nd message. See Rom 16's finale about how the power of the preaching is one of the "places" where God's reign is seen. The message and the preaching are made equal forces establishing the reign of God; the term 'command' in 26 about how the message clarifies the prophet's message is an 'epitagen' or royal decree from a king, so that all nations will believe and obey. Paul risked himself using that term because it was the same as used for many imperial decrees.

 

[Danoh]

Heir,
you are out of line.
The reason the sermon piqued with their accusation was so they would ask their obvious question and get their obvious answer in v38. You are really a chopped up observer, between this and the New Covenant materials.

So says the man who has failed to see that, in Acts 10; Peter was not being "corrected," rather; he was being made privy to a change.

You get that wrong because the so called "history" research your "theology is then based on" is in the writings of men who are only parroting your exact same error - searching out the history of these things everywhere but where 2 Timothy 3:16-17 asserts all answers are to be found.

Here; try believing this by searching out the answers there - ya ready; its real simple...

2 Timothy 3:

16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I know, I know; that's a real shock, isn't it; that the Spirit would have the nerve to assert what only men confusing their notions of history into the passages can hope to deliver on.

Your years in your books based wisdom has you very well versed in all the nuances of your tradition.

That's your problem. You deal with someone as well versed in the nuances of the Word itself through many years - in - the - Book - Itself - and it really is "all Greek" to you.

 

[turbosixx]

No, rummy, you asserted that I am to answer you. Show me that you know the book, as I do, and defend your "argument." We are all busy men/women. Now...

What verse demands that I answer any of your trap questions?

Yes or no: your saint Judas preached the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

I'm a director, here; you are one of the dancers.


We will wait....for any eternity-chapter, verse.

No you don't have to answer my trap question. I'm just trying to understand your line of reasoning. As director, I was hoping you could help me to better understand the truth.

You say the 12 preached the kingdom come before the DBR and not the gospel. Your right, they didn't preach the gospel and didn't understand the whole plan but only proclaimed what they were instructed, And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' .

After Jesus DBR, did they continue to preach the kingdom or did they preach the gospel (since there was now good news)?

 

[turbosixx]

That is NOT the same gospel that "Christ died for our sins"!

38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[achduke]

The dbr was hid from them, for almost 3 years. Peter, twice, attempted to prevent the Master's deaththe very death, that would reconcile him/others. After the resurrection, the 12, initially, did no believe that He had risen. And yet, during this time, the 12, including Judas, did preach the gospel/good news of the kingdom. Thus, the 12 were certainly not preaching 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, at least prior to its occurrence, and thus, the good news of the kingdom, is thus not equivalent to the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV.[/U]

It is true they did not always understand what they were teaching during the 3.5 years but all the material for dbr was there. After Christ had died and had risen he rebuked them for not understanding then he continued and told them to go out and preach the gospel to everyone. This is the point of time when they preached the gospel.

 

[heir]

38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It says

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Anyone who will study their Bible can see that Israel looks forward to the blotting out of their sins!

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

[achduke]

It says

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Anyone who will study their Bible can see that Israel looks forward to the blotting out of their sins!

This was preached to people from many nations not just Jews in Israel.

Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from EVERY NATION under heaven.

Act 2:9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,

Act 2:10 "Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,

Act 2:11 "Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."




Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

 

[Interplanner]

Achduke,
the grammar on this line from Acts is that these people were Jews, members of Judaism there from out of town for the festival. Very few foreigners would attend just to observe if they were not at some stage of converting to Judaism.

But: when they go home, that's a different thing altogether. They return home to all those countries and the mission of the Gospel has been jumpstarted. It is now getting out to all those nations, which is the sign purpose of the true tongues events each time. (True, meaning, not the odd variation going on at Corinth).

 

[achduke]

Achduke,
the grammar on this line from Acts is that these people were Jews, members of Judaism there from out of town for the festival. Very few foreigners would attend just to observe if they were not at some stage of converting to Judaism.

I understand but they were still from all nations not just Israel. We are all one body. To be a believer you do not have to be Jewish.