When does the biblical day begin?

[rstrats]

WatchmanOnTheWall,
re: "You need to show it in scripture otherwise you're just voicing an opinion. The Bible provides four verse at least that show a day was from evening to evening but there is not one verse that shows it was from morning to morning"


He also thinks the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week.

 

[clefty]

Nehemiah 13:19
So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath. Then I posted some of my servants at the gates, so that no burdens would be brought in on the Sabbath day.

This is another proof that Sabbath starts at sunset and not day break. As soon as it turns dark, the gates are shut. It did not say "as soon as it was day break shut the gate."

http://biblehub.com/nehemiah/

http://www.scripture4all.org/

If by becoming dark it becomes the Sabbath why the odd wording of closing the gate "as it began to be dark BEFORE the Sabbath"...if by becoming dark it becomes the Sabbath it should just read "as it became the Sabbath"...obviously there is a darkness before the Sabbath which is not the Sabbath...

1 Sam 28: 8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”

Ok so there they are at night. Sun was already set yes?

The medium proclaims

19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

Notice she says "tomorrow" as in the next day...you know...after the sun comes up...she did not say "and later today you will be killed" as it was already night which to those advocating sunset to sunset this would mean the following day light should be the same day...not tomorrow...

 

[chair]

If by becoming dark it becomes the Sabbath why the odd wording of closing the gate "as it began to be dark BEFORE the Sabbath"...if by becoming dark it becomes the Sabbath it should just read "as it became the Sabbath"...obviously there is a darkness before the Sabbath which is not the Sabbath...

No. Not "obviously. If you wants the gates closed on the Sabbath, you have to close them before the Sabbath actually starts. Split-second timing isn't practical. That is how Jews start the Sabbath to this day- 20 or 30 minutes before sunset

1 Sam 28: 8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”

Ok so there they are at night. Sun was already set yes?

The medium proclaims

19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

Notice she says "tomorrow" as in the next day...you know...after the sun comes up...she did not say "and later today you will be killed" as it was already night which to those advocating sunset to sunset this would mean the following day light should be the same day...not tomorrow...

I think this is the core of the misunderstanding. The Hebrew word translated as "tomorrow" doesn't mean "the next day". It means "the next morning".

 

[jamie]

Day always starts when the dark is replaced with light, never when the light is replaced with dark.
Day begins at dawn, not at sunset.

Regardless of what scripture says, right?

 

[clefty]

Regardless of what scripture says, right?

Which is:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.

Darkness before light was not called night...

Light was created...was seen as good...was called good...was separated from darkness...was called day...the darkness was NOW called night...and THEN it came to be evening as this light diminished into night and THEN it came to be morning...and now completed the day is finally numbered--the first day.

And then the next act of creation occurs...the next day

As with seconds minutes and hours the time passes first and then is numbered...As with birthdays the time passes first and then is numbered...as with distances the ground is covered and then numbered

 

[clefty]

WatchmanOnTheWall,
re: "You need to show it in scripture otherwise you're just voicing an opinion. The Bible provides four verse at least that show a day was from evening to evening but there is not one verse that shows it was from morning to morning"


He also thinks the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week.

The wrath of Yah passed over at midnight the SAME day the lamb was killed.

All thank offerings are killed and eaten THAT SAME DAY with none left to the morning...the next day

If evening meant the next day the meal would be eaten and the wrath wold be passing on the next day...not THAT SAME DAY

 

[chair]

The wrath of Yah passed over at midnight the SAME day the lamb was killed.

All thank offerings are killed and eaten THAT SAME DAY with none left to the morning...the next day

If evening meant the next day the meal would be eaten and the wrath wold be passing on the next day...not THAT SAME DAY

It is you putting in the phrase "SAME DAY" into those verses. What does the text actually say?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

If by becoming dark it becomes the Sabbath why the odd wording of closing the gate "as it began to be dark BEFORE the Sabbath"...if by becoming dark it becomes the Sabbath it should just read "as it became the Sabbath"...obviously there is a darkness before the Sabbath which is not the Sabbath...

WOW! are there any other bits of the Bible that "Should just read". You can't change scripture to suit your personal ideas:

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32
“Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

Revelation 22:18
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

He also thinks the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week.

Actually it was the 6th day of the week, He is quite right. Day 14 of Aviv is always the 6th day of the week:

New Moon day = Day 1 of the month.
Followed by 6 days of work.
Day 8 = the 1st Sabbath.
Followed by 6 days of work.
Day 15 = the 2nd Sabbath
Followed by 6 days of work.
Day 22 = the 3rd Sabbath.
Followed by 6 days of work.
Day 29 = the 4th and final Sabbath of the month.

 

[chair]

Actually it was the 6th day of the week, He is quite right. Day 14 of Aviv is always the 6th day of the week:

New Moon day = Day 1 of the month.
Followed by 6 days of work.
Day 8 = the 1st Sabbath.
Followed by 6 days of work.
Day 15 = the 2nd Sabbath
Followed by 6 days of work.
Day 22 = the 3rd Sabbath.
Followed by 6 days of work.
Day 29 = the 4th and final Sabbath of the month.

So the month always has the same number of days, and there are sometimes 7 days from Sabbath to Sabbath, and sometimes 8?

Where did you get this from? I thought maybe this was a Qumran sect, but that doesn't seem right . This doesn't have anything at all to do with what Jews today do, so you'd have to explain why and when this changed. Not to mention the fact that the Bible talks of the 7th day- but your 7th day is sometimes the 8th. And the fixed month length will very quickly be out of touch with the real seasons, so your "Aviv" (and Passover) will end up in the wrong season.

In short, this seems weird, to put it mildly. So please explain where it comes from.

 

[jamie]

Day begins at dawn, not at sunset.

Does Tishri 9 begin at dawn?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

So the month always has the same number of days, and there are sometimes 7 days from Sabbath to Sabbath, and sometimes 8?

Where did you get this from? I thought maybe this was a Qumran sect, but that doesn't seem right . This doesn't have anything at all to do with what Jews today do, so you'd have to explain why and when this changed. Not to mention the fact that the Bible talks of the 7th day- but your 7th day is sometimes the 8th. And the fixed month length will very quickly be out of touch with the real seasons, so your "Aviv" (and Passover) will end up in the wrong season.

In short, this seems weird, to put it mildly. So please explain where it comes from.

The pagan Roman Julian/Gregorian calendar that we now use was only created in 45 BC, before this time it did not exist. Therefore, the current 7 day rolling week we currently use only began at that time. Before this date the Romans (Just in the Provence of Rome) were using a calendar with an 8 day week:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar

The Greek Mathematician Sosigenes who Julius Caesar employed to create the new calendar simply removed one of these days (Market day), so the chances of the current 7 day week matching the Jewish week was only a 1 in 7 chance.

The calendar Jesus and the Israelites had been using in Israel for over 1500 years prior to this time was completely different to the Julian calendar/Gregorian calendar. Their months began with the sighting of the new crescent moon on which they rested and had a new moon feast, then there were 6 days of work followed by the first Sabbath. Lunar months are 29.53 days long and therefore Sabbaths fall on day’s 8, 15, 22 and 29 each lunar month. Then the process begins over again with the sighting of the next new moon.

However, God’s Calendar is not the same calendar the Jews of today use. The Jews currently use a revised version of God’s Calendar which uses the Gregorian rolling week system instead of God’s lunar weeks, this was due partly to the Roman Emperor Hadrian after he had put down the Jewish Simon Bar-Kokhba revolt in 135 AD and made an anti-religious decree forbidding Sabbath new moon observances from Jerusalem and also the Roman Emperor Constantine who began to force the Jews in 325 AD to worship on the pagan day called Saturday (named after the Roman god of agriculture; Saturnus).

The Jewish calendar used today was created in 359 AD by Sanhedrin Rabbi Hillel II, this was in response to the Romans banishing the Jews from living in Jerusalem, as the Jews could no longer sight the new moon from there and so Hillel’s calendar uses a repeating 19 year lunar mathematical calculation that approximates the timing of each new moon sighting from Jerusalem. This allowed all the Jews to celebrate their feasts on the same day no matter where they had been scattered all over the Earth.

The fourth commandment; ‘Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy,’ has virtually been forgotten, a command more important than murder for example, which is the sixth commandment. Although we are saved by grace we should still use the ten commandments as our guide as to how to live. We are not dependant on the law but it will prosper us if we adhere to it, equally if we break these laws then we will face the consequences.

I hope this helps you to understand that the Sabbath is not on Saturdays or Sundays (Which are all pagan names that were invented long after God's Calendar of the Bible) but instead can fall on any day of the pagan Julian/Gregorian week. The calendar the Jews used was written about by Moses in the Bible, it is God’s Calendar and you can read more about how it is explained in scripture:

Robert Nicholas - The Christian's guide to the Bible:
https://guidetothebible.wordpress.com/start-reading-the-book/

John D Keyser – founder of Hope of Israel ministries:
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/sabtosat.htm

Further studies on God’s Lunar Solar Calendar by other Bible scholars:

International Date Line Change: The Sabbath Unchanged by Worlds Last Chance Ministries?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sUyZpM5xls

Robert-Aaron Richmond explains from scripture how God’s Calendar works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJq8tKvnemU

 

[clefty]

It is you putting in the phrase "SAME DAY" into those verses. What does the text actually say?

The lamb is to be eaten "that same night" of the day it was killed...leaving none to the morning...the next day...

Thank offerings are made clear to be eaten the same day leaving none of it to morning...Lev 22:30

 

[jamie]

Does Tishri 9 begin at dawn?

Of course not, Jamie. That's borderline stupid.

We all realize a new 24 hour day begins at sunset.

Sunset is the end of one day and the beginning of another day.

 

[clefty]

WOW! are there any other bits of the Bible that "Should just read". You can't change scripture to suit your personal ideas:

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32
“Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

Revelation 22:18
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

I don't wish to add anything...

It reads what is written...there is a darkness before Sabbath that is not called Sabbath

Others here wish to add to the word that that darkness was already the Sabbath.

They were prevented from selling on the Sabbath by preventing them from setting up to sell during the darkness before the Sabbath began at day break...

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I don't wish to add anything...

It reads what is written...there is a darkness before Sabbath that is not called Sabbath

Others here wish to add to the word that that darkness was already the Sabbath.

They were prevented from selling on the Sabbath by preventing them from setting up to sell during the darkness before the Sabbath began at day break...

You need to show it in scripture otherwise you're just voicing an opinion. The Bible provides at least four verse that show a day was from evening to evening but there is not one verse that shows it was from morning to morning:

Numbers 9:5
And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month between the two evenings in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the sons of Israel.

http://biblehub.com/numbers/9-5.htm

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...OTpdf/num9.pdf


Exodus 12:6
And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings.

http://biblehub.com/exodus/12-6.htm

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/exo12.pdf


Leviticus 23:32
It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath."

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-32.htm

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/lev23.pdf


Nehemiah 13:19
So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath. Then I posted some of my servants at the gates, so that no burdens would be brought in on the Sabbath day.

http://biblehub.com/nehemiah/

http://www.scripture4all.org/

 

[clefty]

Of course not, Jamie. That's borderline stupid.

We all realize a new 24 hour day begins at sunset.

Sunset is the end of one day and the beginning of another day.

Do we fast only one day...the 10th? According to sunset to sunset the 10th starts on the even of the 9th.

Why not just say "afflict yourselves on the 10th"...it would already be understood that that was when the sun set on the 9th becoming the 10th.

This was not a typical one day/sabbath festival...something was added to its time...the time of the evening of 9th the night of the 9th and into the 10th at day break

 

[jamie]

This was not a typical one day/sabbath festival...something was added to its time...the time of the evening of 9th the night of the 9th and into the 10th at day break

"And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement." (Leviticus 23:26-27)

"It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest and you shall afflict your souls, on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your Sabbath." (Leviticus 23:32)

Obviously this day and all days, go from evening to evening.

 

[chair]

The pagan Roman Julian/Gregorian calendar that we now use was only created in 45 BC, before this time it did not exist. Therefore, the current 7 day rolling week we currently use only began at that time. Before this date the Romans (Just in the Provence of Rome) were using a calendar with an 8 day week:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar

Interesting, perhaps, if true. But not relevant to the Hebrew Calendar.

The Greek Mathematician Sosigenes who Julius Caesar employed to create the new calendar simply removed one of these days (Market day), so the chances of the current 7 day week matching the Jewish week was only a 1 in 7 chance.

Also not relevant

The calendar Jesus and the Israelites had been using in Israel for over 1500 years prior to this time was completely different to the Julian calendar/Gregorian calendar. Their months began with the sighting of the new crescent moon on which they rested and had a new moon feast, then there were 6 days of work followed by the first Sabbath. Lunar months are 29.53 days long and therefore Sabbaths fall on day’s 8, 15, 22 and 29 each lunar month. Then the process begins over again with the sighting of the next new moon.

You've said this before. repeating it doesn't make it true. I will comment on your sources later on.

However, God’s Calendar is not the same calendar the Jews of today use. The Jews currently use a revised version of God’s Calendar which uses the Gregorian rolling week system instead of God’s lunar weeks, this was due partly to the Roman Emperor Hadrian after he had put down the Jewish Simon Bar-Kokhba revolt in 135 AD and made an anti-religious decree forbidding Sabbath new moon observances from Jerusalem and also the Roman Emperor Constantine who began to force the Jews in 325 AD to worship on the pagan day called Saturday (named after the Roman god of agriculture; Saturnus).

Another baseless assertion. I don't see any evidence that this happened.

The Jewish calendar used today was created in 359 AD by Sanhedrin Rabbi Hillel II, this was in response to the Romans banishing the Jews from living in Jerusalem, as the Jews could no longer sight the new moon from there and so Hillel’s calendar uses a repeating 19 year lunar mathematical calculation that approximates the timing of each new moon sighting from Jerusalem. This allowed all the Jews to celebrate their feasts on the same day no matter where they had been scattered all over the Earth.

No. How could you get this so wrong? Hillel II did not create the calendar- he replaced the lunar sighting with a calculated time. That is all. The calendar remained the same.

The fourth commandment; ‘Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy,’ has virtually been forgotten, a command more important than murder for example, which is the sixth commandment.

1. Forgotten by who? Not by Jews
2. The commandments are in order of importance? really?

Although we are saved by grace we should still use the ten commandments as our guide as to how to live. We are not dependant on the law but it will prosper us if we adhere to it, equally if we break these laws then we will face the consequences.

I hope this helps you to understand that the Sabbath is not on Saturdays or Sundays (Which are all pagan names that were invented long after God's Calendar of the Bible) but instead can fall on any day of the pagan Julian/Gregorian week. The calendar the Jews used was written about by Moses in the Bible, it is God’s Calendar and you can read more about how it is explained in scripture:

We called Shabbat Shabbat. It is not a pagan name. It is in the Hebrew Bible. What the Romans called the days is irrelevant.

Robert Nicholas - The Christian's guide to the Bible:
https://guidetothebible.wordpress.com/start-reading-the-book/

John D Keyser – founder of Hope of Israel ministries:
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/sabtosat.htm

Further studies on God’s Lunar Solar Calendar by other Bible scholars:

International Date Line Change: The Sabbath Unchanged by Worlds Last Chance Ministries?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sUyZpM5xls

Robert-Aaron Richmond explains from scripture how God’s Calendar works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJq8tKvnemU

I did not watch the videos. I took a look at your rather long sources, which discuss all sorts of things relating to the weekly and monthly cycle. I did see some claims similar to yours. I was not impressed with the logic.

Please answer: How did your Hebrew calendar (or God's calendar) keep the seasons sorted out? Passover is supposed to be in the spring, but your calendar has years that are too short to accomplish that.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Interesting, perhaps, if true.

Please answer: How did your Hebrew calendar (or God's calendar) keep the seasons sorted out? Passover is supposed to be in the spring, but your calendar has years that are too short to accomplish that.

AS there are only 354.36708 days in twelve lunar months an extra thirteenth month, called Adar II, would be added whenever it was judged by the Sanhedrin that the barley was not going to be ripe enough to be made into fine flour, ready for the day of First Fruits held on day 16 of Aviv. This was determined at the end of month twelve, Adar I, and if it wasn’t ripe enough the extra month, Adar II, was added. Then the whole yearly cycle would begin again with the sighting of the next new moon, which would begin the month of Aviv, month 1. The barley needed to be ripe enough for it to be made into fine flour, so that it can be offered as a burnt offering on the altar of incense in the temple at Aviv:

Leviticus 23:13
together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil--a food offering presented to the LORD, a pleasing aroma--and its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine.

I understand why you are not accepting what I have told you along with the the other sources who teach this. It is difficult for some to accept but it is the truth of the situation. The scriptures show this but you need to take the time to read it through. The vidoes are also very helpful in helping to understand the situation.