What's calvinism?

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
Turbo's point is valid and brilliant!

Of course you believe this. He is of the same "sheep" you are.

It is a point that I have made to you countless times and you continually ignore it or blow it off (which I suppose you must have been predestined to do, right?)

Its time someone stand up to false satanic doctrine that is infiltrating the Christian community. I am called not to tolerate false teachings. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

I gotta be blunt here - Open theism is pleasure in unrighteousness.

If Turbo's comments are simple mockery then demonstrate how his logic is flawed. You won't because you can't! Calvinists must all believe that God predestined them to lose debate after debate because according to Calvinism EVERYTHING is predestined.

LOL. God doesn't destine His people to debate anything. The truth is not a debatable issue. It speaks for itself. Yet you reject it. Then again, it's man nature to reject God.

What did the Calvinist say after breaking his leg?

Boy! I'm glad that's over with! :chuckle:

:ha: What does God say after an open theist prays to Him?

I'd answer your prayer but I don't know what is going to happen.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Of course you believe this. He is of the same "sheep" you are.

I also believe it because he's right.

Its time someone stand up to false satanic doctrine that is infiltrating the Christian community. I am called not to tolerate false teachings. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

There you go contradicting your own belief system again!
You speak as if your have free will, but Calvinism says that we do not have free will, that everything that happens has been predestined since before the foundation of the world. So which is it?
And by the way, the scripture you quote can be just as easily applied to Calvinism. The difference would be that Open Theism can't trace it's roots back to Aristotle and Plato.

I gotta be blunt here - Open theism is pleasure in unrighteousness.

You are an ignorant fool! Baseless accusations that fly in the face of all reason and logic won't convince anybody. When have I or any open theist taken pleasure in unrighteousness. We haven't and you know it! On the contrary! It is open theist who start threads like 'Nicer than God'. A thread which posts an article written by an open theist and a thread which not one single open theist on this board would disagree with in the slightest.

LOL. God doesn't destine His people to debate anything. The truth is not a debatable issue. It speaks for itself. Yet you reject it. Then again, it's man nature to reject God.

Really? Are you sure? Who are you to redefine what Calvinism is?
I suggest you go and do your homework. Calvinism not only teaches that God predestined people to debate but absolutely every single event that takes place! If He didn't then something new would happen that God hadn't already seen and that would be a change in God and God would explode or something because of course God cannot change at all in any way!
If you are going to debate Calvinism, you might at least make sure you are familiar with its teachings.

:ha: What does God say after an open theist prays to Him?

I'd answer your prayer but I don't know what is going to happen.

Nice try, but it just doesn't seem to have as good a ring to it as mine, does it?
Further, at least an open theist would have a logical reason to pray. A Calvinist, on the other hand, has no reason to pray at all! Your prayers can't change anything right? It's all been predestined to happen the way its going to happen regardless of your prayers so why bother?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I also believe it because he's right.

He's also a sinner and believes in the teachings of man.

There you go contradicting your own belief system again!

You mean I'm contradicting YOUR belief system.

You speak as if your have free will, but Calvinism says that we do not have free will, that everything that happens has been predestined since before the foundation of the world. So which is it?

So does not having free will mean that I have to tolerate any false doctrines? Surely this isn't what you mean. I was very clear in what I said and the passage from 2 Thessalonians. OPEN YOUR EYES CLETE.

And by the way, the scripture you quote can be just as easily applied to Calvinism. The difference would be that Open Theism can't trace it's roots back to Aristotle and Plato.

And then eventually back to the apostles. Calvin didn't write any of the books in the NT. Romans 9, John 6, Ephesians, Hebrews 2, etc.........

Open theism can be traced back to "The God Who Risks". That sounds like some strong delusion sent by God to authors such as John Sanders, the liberal OVer himself.

You are an ignorant fool!

Matthew 5:22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Then again, you probably are not my brother.

Baseless accusations that fly in the face of all reason and logic won't convince anybody.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. It seems Bob Hill has already reeled you in enough.

When have I or any open theist taken pleasure in unrighteousness. We haven't and you know it! On the contrary! It is open theist who start threads like 'Nicer than God'. A thread which posts an article written by an open theist and a thread which not one single open theist on this board would disagree with in the slightest.

What do you want me to do? Give you a cookie?

Really? Are you sure? Who are you to redefine what Calvinism is?
I suggest you go and do your homework. Calvinism not only teaches that God predestined people to debate but absolutely every single event that takes place! If He didn't then something new would happen that God hadn't already seen and that would be a change in God and God would explode or something because of course God cannot change at all in any way!
If you are going to debate Calvinism, you might at least make sure you are familiar with its teachings.

Seriously Clete. Do not draw conclusions into something that you naturally reject. Once you begin to know the truth, it is nonsense to argue with the like of yourself. God does not approve of debate. God's Scriptures are not a political platform as the OVers see it. You see what I'm saying? It's pointless. The truth will never be revealed unto God chooses to. Then again, that last sentence completely goes against your belief. Oh well. Its a lost cause.

Further, at least an open theist would have a logical reason to pray. A Calvinist, on the other hand, has no reason to pray at all! Your prayers can't change anything right? It's all been predestined to happen the way its going to happen regardless of your prayers so why bother?

Is that a quote from Enyart? Sure sounds like something he'd say.

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Swordsman

I gotta be blunt here - Open theism is pleasure in unrighteousness.

Whoa. Bluntness observed, but that's harsh Swordsman. I'm not an Open Theist, but I've observed that they are trying to honor the Lord as best they are able. I haven't seen any predilection on their part towards unrighteousness. I think your charge is unfair.

Why can't we debate this issue without launching personal insults?

Originally posted by Swordsman

LOL. God doesn't destine His people to debate anything. The truth is not a debatable issue.

I was under the impression that, under Calvinism, God ordains (or predestines) EVERYTHING. So is that not true?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by LightSon I was under the impression that, under Calvinism, God ordains (or predestines) EVERYTHING. So is that not true?

“Nothing is more absurd than to think anything at all is done but by the ordination of God….Every action and motion of every creature is so governed by the hidden counsel of God, that nothing can come to pass, but what was ordained by Him….The wills of men are so governed by the will of God, that they are carried on straight to the mark which He has fore-ordained” (Cal. Inst., book 1, chapter 16, sect. 3).

i'd say it's true. what say you Swordsman?

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Originally posted by Swordsman

I don't feel like jumping through hoops with you today. Call it a quote or a paraphrase, whatever. He brought back that verse in Isaiah to His day.

Interesting... Don't you agree that if Christ would have meant "All thy children" He would have said, "All thy children"? Instead, Christ said "All are taught by God," not just "All thy children." There are many examples of OT "quotes" in the NT that have dramatically different meanings. For example, feel free to compare Matthew 2:15 with Hosea 11:1. Matthew "quotes" Hosea 11:1. Is Matthew really "quoting" Hosea or not?

All isn't everybody. Isaiah shows you this. "All thy children" is God's children. Not everybody. You can't really draw semantics into this. There's really no argument at this point.

All is everybody. Christ shows you this because He changed the Isaiah "quote" from "All thy children" to a universal All. It really is quite simple.

OK. Whatever. Only God can speak the truth to you. Not anyone else. Only He can open your eyes. He did for me.

You fail to address the passage yet again. Christ enlightens every man, not just you and your elect.

Didn't we just beat this dead horse??? You've talked yourself into believing this so much you can't see what the passage is really saying. OPEN YOUR EARS AND LISTEN.

I simply read the passage. You are the one who attempts to convolute Scripture by importing your own ideas. OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE.

I'm happy that you gave me your stamp of approval. :banana:

You're welcome...

Acts 13:48 illustrates when the Gentiles heard Paul and Barnabas preaching, they believed. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. This doesn't sound like they got faith on their own perogative does it? Nope. God creates faith. Not you.

Interesting... If you'd like, I will exegete Acts 13:48. This is also quite simple. Infact, the short version is to back up to verse 46...

Acts 13:46
13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

These Jews "judged themselves" unworthy. Those in Acts 13:48 "appointed themselves" unto eternal life by freely accepting the gospel. I can provide the extended version which deals with the middle voice of the verb if you'd like...

No, you mean man rejects the truth that God deserves ALL the glory for everything. And just by you not understanding what I'm saying here proves my point.

No, I meant what God's Word says. The gospel was "preached in every creature" (Col 1:23). The law was written on every person's heart (Rom 2). The law and the gospel are for everyone, not just your elect supposedly chosen before the foundation of the world...

To YOU it doesn't. Another discussion will not get you to open your eyes and ears. Only God can do this.

Only if God predestined my eyes to be opened. Again, Romans 8:28-30 is corporate. Feel free to establish that it is speaking of individuals....

Its a mystery alright. Funny how Paul over and over explains the Gospel to the 1st century churches. A lot of them still didn't get it. Kinda like today.

What's important is, if you as one of God's elect understands the mystery. Do you share Paul's desire that He states in Ephesians 3:9? How can you if you don't even know what "the mystery" is?

Good Luck,

--Jeremy

 

[Apollo]

Clete,

I said…

If the Christian god has made rejecting him a crime, punishable by death, how can we even pretend that we have a “free will” to accept or reject him?

…and you replied

The fact is that we do choose, whether to our own destruction or otherwise.

Adam’s free will decision to eat of the tree was done with full knowledge of the threat, yet, he ate. Odd decision. He had no reason to “doubt” God’s warning, but chose to ignore it. What’s the object lesson of that? That Adam was “dummer’n dum,” or was “outing” latent rebellious tendencies? He was supposedly “perfect.” Yet, the impression remains that we should doubt not only his loyalty, but his reasoning skills.

He ate. He exercised free will. He sided with Eve. He dared question God’s monopoly on “free will.” A possible object lesson is that threats of punishment are insufficient to force a man of principle to commit treason against himself. In that sense, Adam was a patriot of freedom, no different from Patrick Henry. Another possible object lesson is that God is God, and we’re not. How this obvious fact could ever have been lost on Adam, with no biblical explanation, is a mystery.

Was God testing Adam’s loyalty? Or was Adam testing the limits of his freedom? If so, now we know. Man was never free. Not Adam, and especially not us. Free will is the right to say “no,” otherwise our wills are not free. Man has a legal term for threats of destruction. The term is “extortion” -- the modus operandi of the Christian god.

Coerced confessions are not only not admissible in a human court, they are forbidden under biblical law and the New Testament law of love. It appears you have mistaken “God the Father” for God “The Godfather.” Vito would hold a gun to his victim’s head, tell him to sign “or else,” and call that a choice, too. If man does not have the freedom to accept or reject the Christian god without fear of reprisal, we are slaves in the traditional sense. "Blessing" for obedience and "cursing" for disobedience is how you train a dog, not a man.

Someone asked what Calvinism is. This is it: Christian theology’s most vocal opponent of the myth of free will. If you choose to exercise your even marginally "god-given free will” and commit the "thought crime" of thinking for yourself, you will be destroyed. That is not the "Calvinist" god. That is the "Christian" God. Not much of a choice, either.

 

[smaller]

It is God's Will and predetermination that people use their freewill to argue with each other, and so shall it be forevermore....

oh, and don't forget to damn your neighbor to burn in torture forever today...

 

[Clete]

Apollo,

If you do not repent, you will burn in Hell forever! And, no I'm not making a joke!

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. How's that smaller? Oh, and by the way, the same applies to you as well.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Apollo,

If you do not repent, you will burn in Hell forever! And, no I'm not making a joke!

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. How's that smaller? Oh, and by the way, the same applies to you as well.

Clete, no offense but this seems like an extremely lazy response to Apollo's post.

 

[smaller]

The hand of the accuser upon your's is no surprise Clete. You are it's slave.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by granite1010

Clete, no offense but this seems like an extremely lazy response to Apollo's post.

Apollo did nothing but repeat himself with a larger number of words this time. More of a response is unessesary.
The post I gave not only responded to Apollo but to smaller as well. I killed two birds with one stone! What you call lazy I call efficient!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by smaller

The hand of the accuser upon your's is no surprise Clete. You are it's slave.

It is God's law that convicts both you and Apollo. If you are saying that God's hand is upon me then I'll take that as a compliment and urge you to take it as yet another reason to repent.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Granite]

Shrugging off Apollo's posts as a "house of cards" strikes me as a head in the sand approach, that's all.

 

[lost anomaly]

Swordsman and Clete,

Thank you both for the resources you have provided. Calvinism has been an interesting religion to research. I must say though I am still slightly confused, but with a little more research I think I can solve that on my own.

One thing I don't understand is the predestined part. Why would God only allow certain Elect into his kingdom? Why would he predestined only a few to come home to him? We are his creation, why wouldn't he want all of us? It doesn't make sense to me why we cannot choose to be with our maker and Father. If God loves everyone why would he choose to send someone to hell?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

Swordsman and Clete,

Thank you both for the resources you have provided. Calvinism has been an interesting religion to research. I must say though I am still slightly confused, but with a little more research I think I can solve that on my own.

Your welcome, and I'm sure you can as well! If you have any questions let me know!
Oh wait a minute...

One thing I don't understand is the predestined part. Why would God only allow certain Elect into his kingdom?

Good question! The answer is He wouldn't!

Why would he predestined only a few to come home to him?

Another very insightful question! Again, He wouldn't!

We are his creation, why wouldn't he want all of us?

A veritable fountain of great questions! He does!

It doesn't make sense to me why we cannot choose to be with our maker and Father.

Well that's because it doesn't make sense! :thumb:

If God loves everyone why would he choose to send someone to hell?

I assume you mean arbitrarily.
He wouldn't of course, God is just and shall not the Judge of all the Earth do rightly?

BRILLIANT QUESTIONS!
It will be interesting to see if Swordsman will be able to deal with them as easily.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by granite1010

Shrugging off Apollo's posts as a "house of cards" strikes me as a head in the sand approach, that's all.

granite,

I already responded to Apollo's point the last time he made it. He responded by repeating himself. What else do you want me to say to him that hasn't already been said? The bottom line is that Apollo wants a world where he can do what he wants with no consequences which would render life meaningless and even if that weren't so God is the creator and He didn't set it up that way. Apollo as a member of the creation has no grounds to whine about it. He can either do things God's way or He will be sent to Hell forever. The CHOICE is his.
Feel better now?

Resting in Him,
Clete


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

One thing I don't understand is the predestined part. Why would God only allow certain Elect into his kingdom? Why would he predestined only a few to come home to him? We are his creation, why wouldn't he want all of us? It doesn't make sense to me why we cannot choose to be with our maker and Father. If God loves everyone why would he choose to send someone to hell?

Those are great question, lost anomaly! I'm glad to see that you recognize that Calvinism does not accurately describe the True and Living God, who is revealed in the Bible.

• The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
  
  "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
  "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:16-18
  
  I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; Deuteronomy 30:19

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

Swordsman and Clete,

Thank you both for the resources you have provided. Calvinism has been an interesting religion to research. I must say though I am still slightly confused, but with a little more research I think I can solve that on my own.

One thing I don't understand is the predestined part. (1)Why would God only allow certain Elect into his kingdom? (2)Why would he predestined only a few to come home to him? (3)We are his creation, why wouldn't he want all of us? (4)It doesn't make sense to me why we cannot choose to be with our maker and Father. (5)If God loves everyone why would he choose to send someone to hell?

i'm not a calvinist but here go my answers anyways that i believe calvinists would say.

*all answers here are what i believe calvinists would respond with. they are not my own personal beliefs*

1) there are no "certain elect" only the "elect" whom God showed his irresistible grace to.

2) his sovereign right and since all people deserve hell anyways who are we to question God?

3) everything is done for God's glory. God doesn't get lonely so it's not like he created us for fellowship or anything like that. the problem really is that man is totaly depraved and would never want God on his own so God must show him his irresistible grace and save him. God has the right to save whoever he wants and the fact that he has decided to save any is simply amazing! amazing grace....

4) total depravity.

5) God doesn't love everyone and proved it by only dying for the elect. they are the only ones he loves.

well, that's what i believe a calvinist would say. i'll probably get flamed for this but what the hey.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

 

[smaller]

Clete

It is God's law that convicts both you and Apollo. If you are saying that God's hand is upon me then I'll take that as a compliment and urge you to take it as yet another reason to repent.

You do know who the accuser of others is Clete? It is not God.

God's Law is very specific. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Anyone who does not do so is LAWLESS. When you condemn others to burn in fire forever you are LAWLESS.

Calvinism and Arminianism adherents are LAWLESS in this respect and as such represent the greatest form of hatred.