What's calvinism?

[lost anomaly]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

The young lady started this thread by asking what is Calvinism. I notice that a lot of preople who are NOT Calvinists have taken it upon them selves to answer that question and have either out of ignorance or deliberate deceit grievously misrepresented what Calvinism is. I have no recollection of an Arminian making an effort to not misrepresent the doctrines they neither understand nor have any taste for, but I expect that she knows to give no credit to someone's words even if they do not know when they should be silent.

I must say I am actually surprised at the whole debate that has started because of my simple question and now I'm just confused after reading all of this. I haven't read anything about Calvinism wanting to tortuer all of mankind, but knowing my I might have misread or skipped something about that. All I know is I am more confused about Calvinism now then i was when i asked the question.

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Originally posted by Swordsman

WOW! So even the non-Christians too huh. Is that what the "all" means here?

That's why I explained John 6:44-45....

The "all" are "all" who hear and have learned who come to Christ...

--Jeremy

 

[lost anomaly]

I am hearing much talk of Adam and Eve on this post. Exactly how do they relate to calvinism? I'm a little fuzzy on that.

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

Sword,

I ask you also (along with rolf, helmet and lee) to consider the context before ripping a verse out of context and making it a pre-text. Concerning John 6:44, we must also look at verse 45...

You mean rip it out of your context....

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
So, what's the point here? Who comes to the Son? "They shall all be taught" refers to everyone. Only those who hear and have learned from the Father come to the Son.

In short, all are taught by God. Those who hear the gospel and respond (have learned) come to the Son. Quite simple, huh?

--Jeremy

Jesus was quoting from the prophet Isaiah in chapter 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

"All thy children" or all God's children. In other words Christ is speaking of God's elect. Only those who are His elect will be taught.

And the part where you say those who "respond" or "have learned" - that is at the moment salvation takes place in their hearts. That's where they come to the Son.

So, no, this verse wasn't taken out of context as one can clearly see. Verse 45 plainly elaborates verse 44. Its amazing how the Word of God just flows together, isn't it?

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Sword,

Unfortunately, Christ's quote of Isaiah has a larger meaning...

According to John 1:9, everyone has been enlightened by Jesus Christ,

John 1:9
9 "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world."

The father has drawn everyone who will listen,

John 6:44,45
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me"

The Son draws everyone.

John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself"

The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ.

"But when the Helper comes . . . the Spirit of truth . . . He will testify of Me" (John 15:26).

It is up to each person to respond to the call of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Since God did not predestinate individuals to be saved, we must be sure we take the opportunities to present the gospel of grace to everyone. We should pray for boldness to open our mouths to present the mystery just as Paul did in Ephesians 6:19,

Eph 6:19
19 "Pray . . . for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel."

In Christ, --Jeremy

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Swordsman

WOW! So even the non-Christians too huh. Is that what the "all" means here?

yes. all means all.

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

Sword,

Unfortunately, Christ's quote of Isaiah has a larger meaning...

What else can it mean other than His elect are taught by Him? The prophet is very clear, and even Christ thought so. That's why He quoted Him.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
According to John 1:9, everyone has been enlightened by Jesus Christ,

I agree with you in a sense. Christ is the savior, or light to the world. He is the only light or savior that exists. In that sense, all have or will have some perception of the eternal light of Christ.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
The father has drawn everyone who will listen,

The Son draws everyone.

I answered these previously. No need to argue this point anymore. You know what the Scriptures are saying.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ.

Agreed.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
It is up to each person to respond to the call of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

This response you speak of is God-given faith. The call to salvation is God intersecting in our lives and changing the heart. If you mean that its something you just decide on a whim, then you are implying faith is something developed by ourselves (i.e. salvation by works).

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Since God did not predestinate individuals to be saved, we must be sure we take the opportunities to present the gospel of grace to everyone. We should pray for boldness to open our mouths to present the mystery just as Paul did in Ephesians 6:19,

God did not predestinate individuals to be saved?!?!?!?!?! Romans 8:29-30 says otherwise. And yes, we should be very careful about how we present the gospel of grace. It isn't a gospel that allows one to boast of his salvation. Its a gospel that gives God ALL the glory due to Him. Its all about Him, not us.

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

yes. all means all.

I thought you were an open theist, not a universalist.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Swordsman

I thought you were an open theist, not a universalist.

Jesus dying for all people does not mean all will be saved. it means that all people have the option of salvation open to them and they must make the individual decision to accept it in order to be saved.

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Originally posted by Swordsman

What else can it mean other than His elect are taught by Him? The prophet is very clear, and even Christ thought so. That's why He quoted Him.

Christ didn't "quote" Isaiah. Christ simply stated that the "prophet" made a statement similar to the statement He made.

Let's take a look...

John 6:44,45
6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who hears and has learned from the Father comes to Me.

Isaiah 54:13
54:13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord, And great shall be the peace of your children.

Doesn't look like a direct quote to me???

Christ said "It is written in the prophets..." and then goes on to clarify His interpretation of the passage. Christ says everyone who hears and has learned from the Father comes to Him. The point is, all are taught by God. Whoever of the "all" that hears and has learned comes to Him. You continue,

I agree with you in a sense. Christ is the savior, or light to the world. He is the only light or savior that exists. In that sense, all have or will have some perception of the eternal light of Christ.

Sorry. That's not what John 1:9 says. Christ enlightens every man. Christ gives every man enough light to respond to the gospel. The gospel has been preached "in" every creature under heaven.

Colossian 1:23b
1:23b the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached in every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

You continue,

I answered these previously. No need to argue this point anymore. You know what the Scriptures are saying.

No, you misrepresent John 6:44,45. Christ does not "quote" Isaiah. Christ clarifies that all are taught by God. Man must respond to the gospel. You continue,

Agreed.

Good.

This response you speak of is God-given faith. The call to salvation is God intersecting in our lives and changing the heart.

You fail to substantiate this point with Scripture...

If you mean that its something you just decide on a whim, then you are implying faith is something developed by ourselves (i.e. salvation by works).

Um, no... As stated before, Christ enlightens every man (John 1:9). The gospel is preached "in" every creature (Col 1:23). The gospel is written on every person's heart (Rom 2:14-16). The heavens devlare God's handiwork (Psa 19; Rom 10:18,19). God does not predestine men to hell. Man freely chooses to reject the truth that God has put in them. You continue,

God did not predestinate individuals to be saved?!?!?!?!?! Romans 8:29-30 says otherwise.

Actually, it doesn't... Romans 8:28-30 refers to the corporate body of Christ. Another discussion I guess...

And yes, we should be very careful about how we present the gospel of grace. It isn't a gospel that allows one to boast of his salvation. Its a gospel that gives God ALL the glory due to Him. Its all about Him, not us.

Hint, Hint... Paul prays for boldness to preach the mystery. Do you have any idea what Paul is speaking of? Take a look at my siggy for further...

--Jeremy

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by lost anomaly
I must say I am actually surprised at the whole debate that has started because of my simple question and now I'm just confused after reading all of this. I haven't read anything about Calvinism wanting to tortuer all of mankind, but knowing my I might have misread or skipped something about that. All I know is I am more confused about Calvinism now then i was when i asked the question.

I don't blame you for being confused!

Calvinism basically boils down to one issue, the immutability of God.

Calvinism has been broken down into five major points that give a general outline of its basic teachings. These five points are commonly refered to as the TULIP.

• Total Depravity - Man is completely incapable of any good action whatsoever including putting their faith in Christ.
• Unmerited Favor - God chose to grant you saving faith arbitrarily. His choice had nothing to do with who you are or what you do or what you believe.
• Limited Atonement - Christ's death atoned for the sins of the Elect ONLY, not for the whole world.
• Irresistable Grace - You have no choice in the matter. If God decides to have Grace on you then you will believe and you will be saved (period).
• Perseverance of the Saints - Sort of a repeat of the the last one. No matter what happens, if you are Elect, you will be saved. No one can lose their salvation no matter what.

All five of these points are not derived directly from scripture. They are logically derived from the single premise that God cannot change in any way whatsoever, that He is utterly immutable. Once the conclusions are drawn then scripture is interpreted in such a way as to prop these ideas up but I submit that reverses the propper order of things. Regardless of how many proof text they site, their entire house of cards crumbles to the ground if God can be shown to change in any way.

And by the way, this is not just my opinion. Calvinism's history can be clearly documented step by step by step. When one goes back far enough you find that Calvinism has its root in pagan Greek philosophy not Scripture.
Bob Hill has done as good a job of documenting this as anyone that I am aware of. Here are a couple of links to articles that thoroughly cover the subject....



Calvinism vs the Bible

And...

Augustine on The Absolute Foreknowledge of God

Pastor Hill has written several more they can all be found here

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Clete,

i noticed that for the "U" of TULIP you called it "Unmeritted Favor". it was my understanding that the "U" of TULIP stood for "Unconditional Election". have you always called the "U" unmerrited favor or were you just restating what it was in easy to understand terms?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Clete,

I noticed that for the "U" of TULIP you called it "Unmeritted Favor". It was my understanding that the "U" of TULIP stood for "Unconditional Election". Have you always called the "U" unmerrited favor or were you just restating what it was in easy to understand terms?

I've seen it both ways, I don't really have a preference. It seems that I remember 'unmeritted favor' more easily, I don't know why.
They both are the exact same thing though, sorry if I confused anyone.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Jesus dying for all people does not mean all will be saved. it means that all people have the option of salvation open to them and they must make the individual decision to accept it in order to be saved.

Another aspect of the truth is this.


ALL are "DEAD in trespases and in sin"
and God calls ALL men to repent.
Those then who RISE UP as it were in repsonse to the WORD justyfy the WORD and are BORNagain.
Those who do not are STILL dead.
AND UNTILL THEY DO RESPOND will remain as they are.
though in truth will grow worse the longer they reject the WORD of life.
It is NOT in the ability of those DEAD TO RAISE UP by thier own power or will.
But it is by that WORD of God and the SPIRIT of God that so quickens them.
They who RECEIVE the WORD receive LIFE.
They who do not but reject it have no life in them.

Therefore those who think in their heart that there MUST be something in them that saves them. are wrong.
and if God did not SPEAK then NO ONE would rise.

Men are in DARKNESS AND THIER "UNDERSDTANDING is darkened" and they are BLIND.
It is not untill the LIGHT comes that men get A TRUE understanding either of themselves or God.
Therefore it has pleased God by the "foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" what?
The WORD"the ENTRANCE of which giveth LIGHT"
Men here and elsewhere are seekign to understand the things of God by that carnal mind which understands NOTHING about God. and is in fact CONTARY to Him!
"NEITHER can it ACCEPT the things of God"
And just because we may be BORNagain should not lead us to think we do not need STILL to be LED by HIM who first RAISED US UP FROM THE DEAD!
But soem seem to think once we are BORNagain that we can then rely upon "our own understanding" and the "wisdom of men" which neither now or before brought us any light !
Why then do 'we' who have started in the SPIRIT should think we can finish in the flesh"
No.
as we are BORN of the WORD and the SPIRIT.
We cannot GROW in grace and the TRUE and LIVELY knowldge of God by the WORD only for the "letter killeth" but we MUST have the SPIRIT of truth to LEAD us into all truth " for the SPIRIT giveth LIFE"


Those who seek top justyfy themselves before God and to establish thier own rightousness need to look again at the WORD of God.
For God is not at MENS bidding.
bUT MEN if His are HIS SONS.
as such then should fullfill the "LAW OF CHRIST"
for THEN is it that we show we are the "sons of God" for they who are LED by the SPIRIT of God ARE the sons of God"

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I don't blame you for being confused!

Calvinism basically boils down to one issue, the immutability of God.

Calvinism has been broken down into five major points that give a general outline of its basic teachings. These five points are commonly refered to as the TULIP.

• Total Depravity - Man is completely incapable of any good action whatsoever including putting their faith in Christ.
• Unmerited Favor - God chose to grant you saving faith arbitrarily. His choice had nothing to do with who you are or what you do or what you believe.
• Limited Atonement - Christ's death atoned for the sins of the Elect ONLY, not for the whole world.
• Irresistable Grace - You have no choice in the matter. If God decides to have Grace on you then you will believe and you will be saved (period).
• Perseverance of the Saints - Sort of a repeat of the the last one. No matter what happens, if you are Elect, you will be saved. No one can lose their salvation no matter what.

All five of these points are not derived directly from scripture. They are logically derived from the single premise that God cannot change in any way whatsoever, that He is utterly immutable. Once the conclusions are drawn then scripture is interpreted in such a way as to prop these ideas up but I submit that reverses the propper order of things. Regardless of how many proof text they site, their entire house of cards crumbles to the ground if God can be shown to change in any way.

And by the way, this is not just my opinion. Calvinism's history can be clearly documented step by step by step. When one goes back far enough you find that Calvinism has its root in pagan Greek philosophy not Scripture.
Bob Hill has done as good a job of documenting this as anyone that I am aware of. Here are a couple of links to articles that thoroughly cover the subject....



Calvinism vs the Bible

And...

Augustine on The Absolute Foreknowledge of God

Pastor Hill has written several more they can all be found here

Resting in Him,
Clete

lost anomaly

As Clete pointed out here of his opinions of Calvinism, I challenge you to seek out the truth for yourself. I've looked over those links provided by Clete and they are of an open theist's view of Calvinism. In other words, you're getting the oppositions' perspective. Nothing wrong with reading it, but try looking at the sovereignty of God and His abounding grace from a Calvinist's perspective. Take a look at http://www.mslick.com/. He has some interesting reading from the Calvinist school of thought. My friend Clete rejects a lot of the truths that Calvinism holds to. And he is wrong in that it is based wholly on Scripture and not of some book author as open theism is.

So I challenge you to seek Him. Pray to Him to show you the truth. The Word is sufficient to show you this as well. Works by Boyd, Sanders, Bob Hill, Chuck Stanley, or any other author are more opinionated at best. Steer clear of false teachers. Seek God for who He is by reading His Word. Read the epistles. Start with Romans. They are full of truths of how God deserves all glory due Him. He is Sovereign above all things. He has chosen whom He pleases for His glory. His grace is irresistable and unattainable by ourselves without His spirit.

Vaya con dios.......

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

Christ didn't "quote" Isaiah. Christ simply stated that the "prophet" made a statement similar to the statement He made.

Let's take a look...

Doesn't look like a direct quote to me???

I don't feel like jumping through hoops with you today. Call it a quote or a paraphrase, whatever. He brought back that verse in Isaiah to His day.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Christ said "It is written in the prophets..." and then goes on to clarify His interpretation of the passage. Christ says everyone who hears and has learned from the Father comes to Him. The point is, all are taught by God. Whoever of the "all" that hears and has learned comes to Him.

All isn't everybody. Isaiah shows you this. "All thy children" is God's children. Not everybody. You can't really draw semantics into this. There's really no argument at this point.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Sorry. That's not what John 1:9 says. Christ enlightens every man. Christ gives every man enough light to respond to the gospel. The gospel has been preached "in" every creature under heaven.

OK. Whatever. Only God can speak the truth to you. Not anyone else. Only He can open your eyes. He did for me.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
No, you misrepresent John 6:44,45. Christ does not "quote" Isaiah. Christ clarifies that all are taught by God. Man must respond to the gospel.

Didn't we just beat this dead horse??? You've talked yourself into believing this so much you can't see what the passage is really saying. OPEN YOUR EARS AND LISTEN.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Good.

I'm happy that you gave me your stamp of approval. :banana:

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
You fail to substantiate this point with Scripture...

Acts 13:48 illustrates when the Gentiles heard Paul and Barnabas preaching, they believed. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. This doesn't sound like they got faith on their own perogative does it? Nope. God creates faith. Not you.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Um, no... As stated before, Christ enlightens every man (John 1:9). The gospel is preached "in" every creature (Col 1:23). The gospel is written on every person's heart (Rom 2:14-16). The heavens devlare God's handiwork (Psa 19; Rom 10:18,19). God does not predestine men to hell. Man freely chooses to reject the truth that God has put in them.

No, you mean man rejects the truth that God deserves ALL the glory for everything. And just by you not understanding what I'm saying here proves my point.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Actually, it doesn't... Romans 8:28-30 refers to the corporate body of Christ. Another discussion I guess...

To YOU it doesn't. Another discussion will not get you to open your eyes and ears. Only God can do this.

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Hint, Hint... Paul prays for boldness to preach the mystery. Do you have any idea what Paul is speaking of? Take a look at my siggy for further...

--Jeremy

Its a mystery alright. Funny how Paul over and over explains the Gospel to the 1st century churches. A lot of them still didn't get it.


Kinda like today.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Swordsman

lost anomaly

As Clete pointed out here of his opinions of Calvinism, I challenge you to seek out the truth for yourself. I've looked over those links provided by Clete and they are of an open theist's view of Calvinism. In other words, you're getting the oppositions' perspective. Nothing wrong with reading it, but try looking at the sovereignty of God and His abounding grace from a Calvinist's perspective. Take a look at http://www.mslick.com/. He has some interesting reading from the Calvinist school of thought. My friend Clete rejects a lot of the truths that Calvinism holds to. And he is wrong in that it is based wholly on Scripture and not of some book author as open theism is.

So I challenge you to seek Him. Pray to Him to show you the truth. The Word is sufficient to show you this as well. Works by Boyd, Sanders, Bob Hill, Chuck Stanley, or any other author are more opinionated at best. Steer clear of false teachers. Seek God for who He is by reading His Word. Read the epistles. Start with Romans. They are full of truths of how God deserves all glory due Him. He is Sovereign above all things. He has chosen whom He pleases for His glory. His grace is irresistable and unattainable by ourselves without His spirit.

Vaya con dios.......

Interesting the differnece between us. I argue against Calvinism not Calvinists, you argue against Open Theists not Open Theism. :think:

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Didn't we just beat this dead horse??? You've talked yourself into believing this so much you can't see what the passage is really saying. OPEN YOUR EARS AND LISTEN.

*Acts9_12Out*,

"God predetermined that we would beat this dead horse. I hope he hasn't predetermined that we will do it again. God has predetermined that you would believe this way, so there's nothing you or I can do about it. Perhaps He has predetermined to open your ears at some point in our future."

Swordsman, if my interpretation of your statement in error, I hope that God has predetermined that you will explain to me how.

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Turbo

*Acts9_12Out*,

"God predetermined that we would beat this dead horse. I hope he hasn't predetermined that we will do it again. God has predetermined that you would believe this way, so there's nothing you or I can do about it. Perhaps He has predetermined to open your ears at some point in our future."

Swordsman, if my interpretation of your statement in error, I hope that God has predetermined that you will explain to me how.

And you're a moderator. I would expect a little more leadership qualities flowing out of you. Nonetheless, you mock because you do not believe.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Swordsman

And you're a moderator. I would expect a little more leadership qualities flowing out of you. Nonetheless, you mock because you do not believe.

Turbo's point is valid and brilliant! It is a point that I have made to you countless times and you continually ignore it or blow it off (which I suppose you must have been predestined to do, right?)
If Turbo's comments are simple mockery then demonstrate how his logic is flawed. You won't because you can't! Calvinists must all believe that God predestined them to lose debate after debate because according to Calvinism EVERYTHING is predestined.

What did the Calvinist say after breaking his leg?

Boy! I'm glad that's over with! :chuckle:

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I wouldn't have told that corny joke, but it was predestined! :crackup: