What's calvinism?
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Where there is a Law, there is no free will. As soon as God said, "Thou Shalt Not," man's free will was destroyed. If man was not "free" to eat from any tree he pleased (without penalty), and if man is not "free" to reject Christ (without penalty), he is not truly free. Freedom is not freedom if the "freedom" to choose is prejudiced by a threat of punishment for choosing "wrongly."
God gave man NO liberty to DO EVIL.
But to DO GOOD.
and when men DO EVIL though as then they are promised that THEN they will or are free to do so.
In TRUTH they foind that they are BOUND and the more of THAT 'liberty' THEY TAKE the more BOUND they become.
True it is that men want the 'liberty to DO EVIL.
and by deception and the REJECTION of that which was GOOD AND EVIL in GODS SIGHT.
They did that which was "right in thier own eyes".
But let me ask you a question?
You say men are free to choose good and evil and when God said what was good and waht was evil.
When eve ate of that which was good to eat in her own eyes.
WHO'S WILL did she do?
Hers or the devils?
and was she then free as it seems in your eyes then or as it seems then of men now?
God created men "in His OWN IMAGE"
and therefore the LIBERTY He gave them was HIS OWN.
and therefore He gave them the "LIBERTY of the sons of God"
Which when they rejected the WORD of God they LOST.
Jesus therefore came to seeka nd to save that which was LOST.
AND TO SET THE CAPTIVES FREE.
Originally posted by Swordsman
Good job Apollo! It looks like you received your first POTD in just 3 posts.
I'm kinda bummed. I'll never get a POTD or a high-five from them. But then again, I don't play on their team.....
Swordsman,
I don't think you read my post very closely. :chuckle:
Apollo,
Don't take my jab at you too seriously! I'm just fooling around.
But it is sort of silly to say that we are only truly free when our actions have no consequences. Every action has consequences! The "free" world you suggest couldn't even exist.
Resting in Him,
Clete
God_Is_Truth
New member
just remembered, Z Man believes that. we've been discussing it in the do calvinists believe dangerously thread. read post #86.
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In case you freewillers think your end result is any better think again.
The end result of men's supposed freewill is the SAME RESULT as that of Calvinism. God created the majority of mankind only to torture them forever.
I believe in the Sovereignty of God, just not J. Calvins' "limited" version.
The end result of men's supposed freewill is the SAME RESULT as that of Calvinism. God created the majority of mankind only to torture them forever.
I believe in the Sovereignty of God, just not J. Calvins' "limited" version.
God_Is_Truth
New member
i thought you were a universalist :shocked:
that IS what both of your camps believe....think about it....THE ETERNAL DAMNATION OF THE MAJORITY OF HUMANITY is the only thing YOU ALL have in common.
You can ask "christians" about any number of different theological terms and subjects and find a diversity of views...
but OH on that eternal damnation of others many many have found the "wide path" that leads to destruction....(of others of course)
The unbelievers have not "found" such a thing....
I am more than fully aware that LOVING both your neighbors and your enemies is a difficult thing...too much obviously for the everyday "adherent."
You can ask "christians" about any number of different theological terms and subjects and find a diversity of views...
but OH on that eternal damnation of others many many have found the "wide path" that leads to destruction....(of others of course)
The unbelievers have not "found" such a thing....
I am more than fully aware that LOVING both your neighbors and your enemies is a difficult thing...too much obviously for the everyday "adherent."
God_Is_Truth
New member
oh ok. thanks for the clear up turbo.
in that case, i say that God did not create them for hell. they chose that themselves when they rejected God. why should they be with God when they don't want to be? that's like going against their will, kinda like calvinism.....
in that case, i say that God did not create them for hell. they chose that themselves when they rejected God. why should they be with God when they don't want to be? that's like going against their will, kinda like calvinism.....
The Universalists' God
"I'm forcing you all to enter the straight gate; there is no gate that leads to destruction. You can thank me later."
The Calvinists' God
"I created these gates and I created you. Before I did any of that I decided who will go where. I'm forcing a few of you to go through the gate that leads to life. I'm forcing most of you to go through the gate of destruction. Deal with it. (After all, I've predestined you to deal with it.)"
The True and Living God
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14
"I'm forcing you all to enter the straight gate; there is no gate that leads to destruction. You can thank me later."
The Calvinists' God
"I created these gates and I created you. Before I did any of that I decided who will go where. I'm forcing a few of you to go through the gate that leads to life. I'm forcing most of you to go through the gate of destruction. Deal with it. (After all, I've predestined you to deal with it.)"
The True and Living God
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14
Rolf Ernst
New member
Clete--Putting words in God's mouth, hmm? Man, from his own corruption, rejects God and His Word, preferring the broad road to destruction.
God, in spite of man's corruption, determined from everlasting that He would have mercy upon certain ones despite their unworthiness, and does so----"Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy."
Those not chosen to salvation have no right to complain because they receive the choice of their own choosing. Neither can the unbeliever blame God for not choosing a greater number which might have included him, because God was under no obligation to choose even one.
God, in spite of man's corruption, determined from everlasting that He would have mercy upon certain ones despite their unworthiness, and does so----"Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy."
Those not chosen to salvation have no right to complain because they receive the choice of their own choosing. Neither can the unbeliever blame God for not choosing a greater number which might have included him, because God was under no obligation to choose even one.