ECT What Kind of Death?

[glorydaz]

Dan, why do you not answer what I said about the fact that those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an "imminent" appearance of the Lord Jesus? That can only mean that they were members of the Body of Christ.

Just because some Jews were saved when they believed one gospel and some others were saved when they believed another gospel does not mean that only some of the Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ.

Maybe those in Hebrews were waiting for the kingdom on earth....

 

[Danoh]

Maybe those in Hebrews were waiting for the kingdom on earth....

Yup. :thumb:

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

And so on...

Acts 17:11,12 in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Maybe those in Hebrews were waiting for the kingdom on earth....

No, they were waiting for an imminent appearing of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And so on...

Nothing which you said even hints that those who received the Hebrew epistles were NOT expecting an imminent return of the Lord Jesus.

Or perhaps you think that James was in error when he said that the Lord Jesus' appearance was imminent?

Is that what you think?

 

[Danoh]

No, they were waiting for an imminent appearing of the Lord Jesus.

Fact is - the Lord is ever at hand - in both Prophecy and Mystery.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[glorydaz]

No, they were waiting for an imminent appearing of the Lord Jesus.

To set up His kingdom on earth, perhaps.

Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Fact is - the Lord is ever at hand - in both Prophecy and Mystery.

The verses under discussion are in regard to an "imminent" appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

To set up His kingdom on earth, perhaps.

Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

No, before the Lord Jesus returns to the earth there are things which must precede that coming, such as the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (Mt.24:15). That appearance couldn't be described as being "imminent" since certain things must precede that appearance and being imminent means that it can happen at any time.

The Twelve will return to the earth with the Lord Jesus when He returns, and all of the other members of the Body will also return with Him. Because after the saints are caught up then they will always be with the Lord Jesus (1 Thess.4:17).

So it is obvious that Christians will be on the earth during the time when the earthly kingdom is ushered in.

 

[musterion]

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean o ye of the double-standard pals...

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...s-and-Where-Do-They-Fit&p=5179685#post5179685

Rom. 5: 6-8.

Keep on making my point.

They don't answer to me. I can think they're wrong on this or that doctrinal point all the live long day and it won't matter. They DO believe the saving Gospel of grace, as do a few others here. We have the unity of Ephesians.

You say you believe it as well. But that's not enough for you to fellowship with us. You treat us more like enemies to you, from how you always interact with us. And it's not our fault. Never was. Isn't now. It's all you.

But it's all been said before and it's boring.

 

[Danoh]

Keep on making my point.

They don't answer to me. I can think they're wrong on this or that doctrinal point all the live long day and it won't matter. They DO believe the saving Gospel of grace, as do a few others here. We have the unity of Ephesians.

You say you believe it as well. But that's not enough for you to fellowship with us. You treat us more like enemies to you, from how you always interact with us. And it's not our fault. Never was. Isn't now. It's all you.

But it's all been said before and it's boring.

Would that you were bored with your obvious double-standard.

You posted to me "But it's time you stopped acting as if they do answer to you, and insulting them when they don't play along."

Well "insulting them" is exactly what one of your pals is PRESENTLY doing to another MAD, on that link...

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...s-and-Where-Do-They-Fit&p=5179685#post5179685

In your own words - "it's time you stopped acting as if they do answer to you, and insulting them when they don't play along."

And rubbish to your end point there, as well.

For I am just as direct with others as I am with any of you.

And I concede a post by any of you where I find it agrees with what we hold to as MADs.

You and your pals do neither.

Philippians 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

Rather, that yours is a double-standard.

Rom. 5: 6-8 - in EACH our STEAD.

 

[DAN P]

Hi , Jerry , and his first coming , BUT His second coming was POSTPONED and Isa 61:2 says so !!

It was POSTPONED as Israel was set aside as 2 Cor 3:13-15 says and then Christ appointed a new apostle , called Paul with a new message , called the MYSTERY !!

dan p

 

[DAN P]

All the Jews who lived under the law and were saved were saved by grace through faith. In fact, Paul uses David, who lived under the law, to illustrate salvation by faith apart from works:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:4-8).​

The teaching that the catching up of the saints is "imminent" is supported by the following words of Paul:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Now let us look a verse from the Hebrew epistles where the same coming of the Lord is described as being near:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

Since there can only be one "imminent" appearance of the Lord Jesus and since only those in the Body will be caught up at that appearance then we can know with certainty that those who received the Hebrew epistles were in the Body of Christ.

Please address these facts, Dan.

Hi Jerry , and James 5:8 does use the Greek word EGGIZO /DRAWETH NIGH , but Jerry , did you check to see where ELSE the Greek word EGGIZO is also used ??

It is used in Rom 13:12 , Phil 2:30 , Heb 10:25 , James 4:8 and in 1 Peter 4:7 !!

You should have checked , as I did !!

So , what ??

Do you see a difference , between , the verses quoted ABOVE , bet you don not ?


dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Jerry , and James 5:8 does use the Greek word EGGIZO /DRAWETH NIGH , but Jerry , did you check to see where ELSE the Greek word EGGIZO is also used ??

In all the verses which speak of "time" then the word eggizo means imminent. Let us look at this passage:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. Don't grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!" (James 5:8-9).​

Here we see a double revelation of imminency in regard to the coming of the Lord. In these two verses the Apostle James employs a literary device, specifically a figure of speech called Pleonasm, which is defined in the following way:

"When what is said is, immediately after, put in another or opposite way to make it impossible for the sense to be missed" (The Companion Bible, Appendix 6: "Figures of Speech," [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1990] 12).​

The sense which cannot be missed is the fact that the phrase "The Judge is standing at the door" reinforces the idea that the coming of the Lord is "near" in time and both verses speak of an imminent coming of the Lord Jesus. In The Scofield Reference Bible we read that "the Biblical term 'at hand' or 'near' is never a positive affirmation that the person or thing said to be at hand will immediately appear, but only that person or thing has the quality of imminency" (note at Matthew 4:17).

Also, we see the word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

 

[Danoh]

Hi , Jerry , and his first coming , BUT His second coming was POSTPONED and Isa 61:2 says so !!

It was POSTPONED as Israel was set aside as 2 Cor 3:13-15 says and then Christ appointed a new apostle , called Paul with a new message , called the MYSTERY !!

dan p

Paul was NOT saveable under the PRIOR Dispensation. Neither he nor his nation.

Both had been found having committed the UNPARDONABLE sin at the end of Acts 7, that Israel had been warned would NOT be forgiven THEM in Matthew 12.

The balance of my post is in the spoiler below...

Spoiler

The Lord had also said of such...

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Sometime after Paul was saved within a NEW Dispensation, he wrote the following...

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

PRIOR TO his own salvation - in the NEW Dispensation - Paul himself had been of said Jew's pattern.

And true to form, after Acts 7, Paul then continued to "fill up" his "sins alway."

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 8:2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

And worse than that...

Acts 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

Paul had NOT been saveable under that PRIOR Dispensation.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

This that follows BEGAN a NEW Dispensation.

Acts 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

By faith that - IS - IN - ME.

Which is CONSISTENTLY THIS that follows - THROUGHOUT Paul's "my gospel..."

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

In other words...

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Or, to put all that another way...

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

For Paul himself had not been saveable under the PRIOR Dispensation.

Acceptance with God under the PRIOR Dispensation had been the issue of the OPPOSITE of the following BLASPHEMY...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Which boiled down to...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

In other words...

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Meaning that both Israel and Paul were concluded UNcircumcision or HEATHEN.

THAT Dispensation ENDING in THAT MASS failure on THAT Nation's part, and headed FOR that great and TERRIBLE Day of His WRATH.

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Isaiah 3:11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him. 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. 3:13 The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people. 3:14 The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses. 3:15 What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts. 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: 3:17 Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

In contrast to Peter's earlier description (in Acts 2) of the Lord SITTING UNTIL... - in contrast to that, Stephen saw the Lord STANDING.

Towards what intended end did He STAND up?

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Note their response to that - great fear!

2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Why that great fear?

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

THAT is where things WERE at the end of Acts 7.

Israel headed for the Day of the Lord in His Wrath...

Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

But for that MYSTERY that God had planned IN ETERNITY He would temporarily INTERRUPT His the Day of His Wrath despite Israel's obstinance and resulting great fall...

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Acts 9 Dispensationalism...

...is Acts 9 Dispensationalism.

It is Not Acts 2 Dispensationalism.

And it is not Acts 13 Dispensationalism.

And it is not a mix of Acts 9 with Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

And not Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

It is...Acts 9 Dispensationalism.

In memory of Romans 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[DAN P]

Dan, why do you not answer what I said about the fact that those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an "imminent" appearance of the Lord Jesus? That can only mean that they were members of the Body of Christ.

Just because some Jews were saved when they believed one gospel and some others were saved when they believed another gospel does not mean that only some of the Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ.

Hi and I have addressed what IMMINENT is found , so check the Greek text and is found many times !!

The B O C began with a person and than a NEW MESSAGE was given to him , called the MYSTERY in Rom 16:25 and 26 !!

Saul was saved in Acts 9:6 and not in Acts 2 , 7 , 11 , 13 or in 28 as they have no STANDING !!

#1 , First Saul called Jesus Lord /KURIOS , but many called Jesus , LOED many of times , so why the difference , NOW !!

#2 , Jesus first OPENED Saul's HEART as in Acts 16:14 !!

#3 Then God gives the gift of FAITH , to believe !! Eph 2:8

#4 , 1 Cor 12:3 says that " that no one is ables to SAY / EIPON LORD JESUS , EXCEPT by Holy Spirit !!

Do you see that , by Holy Spirit !!

#5 That is why Rom 10:9 is so important That if you should confess with your mouth ( the ) LORD JESUS , and should believe in your heart that God raised Him from ( the ) dead , you will be saved !!

This happens ONLY in the dispensation of the Grace of God !

dan p

 

[DAN P]

Paul was NOT saveable under the PRIOR Dispensation. Neither he nor his nation.

Both had been found having committed the UNPARDONABLE sin at the end of Acts 7, that Israel had been warned would NOT be forgiven THEM in Matthew 12.

The balance of my post is in the spoiler below...

Spoiler

The Lord had also said of such...

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Sometime after Paul was saved within a NEW Dispensation, he wrote the following...

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

PRIOR TO his own salvation - in the NEW Dispensation - Paul himself had been of said Jew's pattern.

And true to form, after Acts 7, Paul then continued to "fill up" his "sins alway."

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 8:2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

And worse than that...

Acts 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

Paul had NOT been saveable under that PRIOR Dispensation.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

This that follows BEGAN a NEW Dispensation.

Acts 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

By faith that - IS - IN - ME.

Which is CONSISTENTLY THIS that follows - THROUGHOUT Paul's "my gospel..."

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

In other words...

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Or, to put all that another way...

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

For Paul himself had not been saveable under the PRIOR Dispensation.

Acceptance with God under the PRIOR Dispensation had been the issue of the OPPOSITE of the following BLASPHEMY...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Which boiled down to...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

In other words...

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Meaning that both Israel and Paul were concluded UNcircumcision or HEATHEN.

THAT Dispensation ENDING in THAT MASS failure on THAT Nation's part, and headed FOR that great and TERRIBLE Day of His WRATH.

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Isaiah 3:11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him. 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. 3:13 The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people. 3:14 The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses. 3:15 What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts. 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: 3:17 Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

In contrast to Peter, earlier in Acts, Stephen saw the Lord STANDING. Towards what end?

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Note their response to that - great fear!

2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Why that great fear?

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

THAT is where things WERE at the end of Acts 7.

Israel headed for the Day of the Lord in His Wrath...

Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

But for that MYSTERY that God had planned IN ETERNITY He would temporarily His Wrath with...

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Acts 9 Dispensationalism...

...is Acts 9 Dispensationalism.

Not Acts 2 Dispensationalism.

And not Acts 13 Dispensationalism.

And not a mix of Acts 9 with Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

And not Acts 28 Dispensationalism.

It is...Acts 9 Dispensationalism.

In memory of Romans 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

Hi and a very good point and that was written in Matt 12:31-32 and it seems that is also speaks to the INDIVIDUAL people or person in verse 32 , those Acts 7 is a BIG SIGN POST along with 2 Cor 3:13-15 , Acts 13:46 and Acts 18:6 and Acts 28 and Luke 13:6-9 and Isa 6 and many more !!

We can see in Phil 3:6 , under the Law , Paul was FAULTLESS !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and I have addressed what IMMINENT is found , so check the Greek text and is found many times !!

So?

You have said nothing which changes the meaning of the word and that meaning sinks your ship.

Which appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ do you think that those who received the Hebrew epistles were looking for?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul was NOT saveable under the PRIOR Dispensation. Neither he nor his nation.

Which dispensation?

 

[Jacob]

In what sense will believers never die?

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

Shalom.

Today is Shlishli (Third), 11-21, Yom, until sundown.

I do not know the answer to your question.

I assume that I can post here.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I do not know the answer to your question.

Of course all believers die physically. So the Lord Jesus' words that those who believe in Him will never die are in regard to the following death:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev.21:8).​