ECT What Kind of Death?

[Danoh]

Jerry, as I believe I said (if I didn't, I meant to), I see a difference between Paul convicting Jews by proving from their own Scriptures that Christ was indeed Messiah, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom vs the Gospel of the grace of God. That's Paul becoming as a Jew to reach Jews; it is not Paul seeking to know or preach Christ after the flesh. He's still preaching Him as He revealed Himself: according to the revelation of the mystery.

Also...all who are in Christ are, according to Paul, the intended inheritors of the Kingdom of God, so Acts 20:25 does not prove Paul preached the Kingdom gospel aka Great Commission. It's just stating a fact.

Yep. :thumb:

At the same time...

Some of your pals on here might not agree with all of that.

Thus, their Acts 28er based foolishness on various things in Acts, and on the Romans, and on the Galatians, and on the Ephesians, and so on.

You're actually agreeing with some of my views and that of many other actual Acts 9ers outside of TOL - including Shawn's exact same (actual Acts 9 based) points.

Which is amusing...

:chuckle:

Don't let it go to your head now; actual Acts 9 is more than one or two points.



In memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For there are other things which together also point out the obvious about Acts 9 and Acts 13.

According to your ideas it is obvious that Paul was preaching the gospel of grace to Gentiles as early as Acts 9. But if it is obvious why have you not given your evidence?

I say that the following words of Paul demonstrates that the preaching to the Gentiles came after Acts 9:

"But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).​

When Paul received a gospel from the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. That can only mean that Paul did not preach a gospel to the Gentiles until sometime after Acts 9.

 

[Danoh]

Stam (9) and O'Hair (13) never agreed on it but finally agreed to disagree, I read somewhere.

Stam mentions something along that line in his Preface to his book "Things That Differ."

At the same time, Stam learned about the water baptism issue from O'Hair.

Who learned it from a former Pentecostal who O'Hair had straightened out on the signs.

When he applied the principle (that O'Hair had laid out to him) to the water issue, he concluded it "out."

O'Hair, being that actually rare Berean, heard the guy out, went home and studied out the issue out for himself, and soon began preaching he had been wrong on water baptism. That it is NOT for the Body.

I have no doubt he would have been open to much later, much better presented arguments in favor of the Acts 9 position, had he lived longer.

For there are various holes in Stam's Acts 9 that he never did address in any of his writings.

Meaning, he too had not seen what later Acts 9ers would be able to, standing on the combined decades of wisdom of those six great shoulders - O'Hair's, Baker's, and Stam's

One of each their most favorite passage having been...

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[Danoh]

According to your ideas it is obvious that Paul was preaching the gospel of grace to Gentiles as early as Acts 9. But if it is obvious why have you not given your evidence?

I say that the following words of Paul demonstrates that the preaching to the Gentiles came after Acts 9:

"But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).​

When Paul received a gospel from the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. That can only mean that Paul did not preach a gospel to the Gentiles until sometime after Acts 9.

As usual, your ever full of holes logic.

And one you are so married to that to attempt to point out the obvious to you is futile.

I have given my evidence - more than once.

At times, in general.

And some three times to you.

Sometimes, I wonder why I even bother.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5: 6-8, Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

O'Hair, being that actually rare Berean, heard the guy out, went home and studied out the issue out for himself, and soon began preaching he had been wrong on water baptism. That it is NOT for the Body.

Yes, and he also rejected the teaching that the doctrine found in the Hebrew epistles is not for those in the Body of Christ--as did Stam!

It is your theology which is a hybrid between Mid-Acts and Acts 28. O'Hair wrote:

"Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphais mine] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).​

There he was rejecting the idea of those in the Acts 28 camp, which is referred to as "Bullingerism" by O'Hair.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As usual, your ever full of holes logic.

What I quoted comes straight from the Bible. Just because you say that my comments are full of holes means nothing. Prove it!

And I still wait for your evidence that Paul was preaching the gospel of grace to Gentiles at Acts 9. You said that earlier you did that but that is a laugh.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi , Jerry and in 2 Cor 3:13-15 says that Israel was already set aside as the VAIL was already over there heart !!

Yes, corporate Israel was set aside. As a nation she didn't repent. But at the same time "individual" Jews were being saved by faith through grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

 

[DAN P]

Yes, corporate Israel was set aside. As a nation she didn't repent. But at the same time "individual" Jews were being saved by faith through grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Hi , and Jerry will you ever answer how Paul was saved ??

And what message was Paul GIVEN !! Gal 1:6-9 !!

And HOW was Peter saved and what message did Peter preach ?? Matt 10:5-42 ??

Why were the disciples able to REMIT SINS in John 20:22-23 , and since you like John 's letter , WHY can not the B O C REMIT SINS ??

dan p

 

[glorydaz]

Your eequally ever obvious duplicity and its unavoidable tendency towards resulting personal animosities has once more short-circuited any hope you might rightly discern a thing.

Out of your personal animosity given your hypocrisy.

BOO HOO :baby:

 

[musterion]

Is calling people of different political views "bigots" a form of personal animosity?

 

[musterion]

Yep. :thumb:

At the same time...

Some of your pals on here might not agree with all of that.

So?

To their own Master they shall answer, not to me.

Nor to you.

Healthy in-house debates are one thing. They're welcome, as long as they're honest. But it's time you stopped acting as if they do answer to you, and insulting them when they don't play along.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi , and Jerry will you ever answer how Paul was saved ??

Dan, why do you not answer what I said about the fact that those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting for an "imminent" appearance of the Lord Jesus? That can only mean that they were members of the Body of Christ.

Just because some Jews were saved when they believed one gospel and some others were saved when they believed another gospel does not mean that only some of the Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ.

 

[DAN P]

Yes, corporate Israel was set aside. As a nation she didn't repent. But at the same time "individual" Jews were being saved by faith through grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Hi , Jerry , and where is that verse that " individual Jews being saved by faith through Garce , found ??

Your are not correct as to Rom 4:16 , as it sholud read " which is the faith of Abram NOT Abraham , so read Gen 12:1 and not changed to Abraham , until Gen 17:5 and is one of the reasons for the different things that I have seen you take , likr that the B O C Began at Acts 7 !!

I must have missed a quetion on what you call " IMMINENT " in Hebrews , so give me your verse ?

You can answer where the B O C began ??

Was it it with a person ? and than the message given to him ?

So , how was Paul saved ? and here is how , Acts 9:6 , Then Act 16:14 , then Rom 10:9 and 10 , and Eph 2:8 !!

If you can NOT see how , ask me and I will explain to you !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi , Jerry , and where is that verse that " individual Jews being saved by faith through Garce , found ??

All the Jews who lived under the law and were saved were saved by grace through faith. In fact, Paul uses David, who lived under the law, to illustrate salvation by faith apart from works:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:4-8).​

I must have missed a quetion on what you call " IMMINENT " in Hebrews , so give me your verse ?

The teaching that the catching up of the saints is "imminent" is supported by the following words of Paul:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Now let us look a verse from the Hebrew epistles where the same coming of the Lord is described as being near:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

Since there can only be one "imminent" appearance of the Lord Jesus and since only those in the Body will be caught up at that appearance then we can know with certainty that those who received the Hebrew epistles were in the Body of Christ.

Please address these facts, Dan.

 

[DAN P]

All the Jews who lived under the law and were saved were saved by grace through faith. In fact, Paul uses David, who lived under the law, to illustrate salvation by faith apart from works:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:4-8).​

The teaching that the catching up of the saints is "imminent" is supported by the following words of Paul:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Now let us look a verse from the Hebrew epistles where the same coming of the Lord is described as being near:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

Since there can only be one "imminent" appearance of the Lord Jesus and since only those in the Body will be caught up at that appearance then we can know with certainty that those who received the Hebrew epistles were in the Body of Christ.

Please address these facts, Dan.

Hi , Jerry , and I did look at Phil 3:20 and 21 and also see where IS AT HAND / EGGYS is used and Jesus I believe used the same or similar word in Matt 4:17 , the Kingdom is at Hand !!

Your context is way OFF !!

And I see that you are avoiding post #53 and talk about salvation , BUT can not say what is means and are helpless !!

Acts 9:6 , and 1 Cor 12:3 , and Gal 3:28 , and Acts 15:11 , and 1 Peter 1:10 , and all has escaped you !!

And I really like you , BUT you need to follow Eph 3;9 !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi , Jerry , and I did look at Phil 3:20 and 21 and also see where IS AT HAND / EGGYS is used and Jesus I believe used the same or similar word in Matt 4:17 , the Kingdom is at Hand !!

Yes, but due to Israel's unbelief the earthly kingdom was postponed, as witnessed by what the Lord Jesus said at Luke 21:27-31.

The Scriptures will be searched in vain concerning anything about the Lord's appearance being postponed.

This is very simple Dan. The Jews who received the Hebrew epistles were taught that the Lord's appearance was "imminent." So they were expecting that they might be taken up with all the other members of the Body of Christ. And since only those in the Body will be caught up then we can know for sure that those who received the Hebrew epistles were members of the Body of Christ.

 

[DAN P]

Yes, but due to Israel's unbelief the earthly kingdom was postponed, as witnessed by what the Lord Jesus said at Luke 21:27-31.

The Scriptures will be searched in vain concerning anything about the Lord's appearance being postponed.

This is very simple Dan. The Jews who received the Hebrew epistles were taught that the Lord's appearance was "imminent." So they were expecting that they might be taken up with all the other members of the Body of Christ. And since only those in the Body will be caught up then we can know for sure that those who received the Hebrew epistles were members of the Body of Christ.

Hi , Jeeey , and I do not mind answering your question BUT answer post #55 and you are being very CALLOW is what I see , So let's answer or say you at this moment , that you CAN 'T NOT !!

If you don not answer I will just say what it means as you are avoiding me !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

Is calling people of different political views "bigots" a form of personal animosity?

In your case, yes.

Often....

:rotfl:

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[Danoh]

So?

To their own Master they shall answer, not to me.

Nor to you.

Healthy in-house debates are one thing. They're welcome, as long as they're honest. But it's time you stopped acting as if they do answer to you, and insulting them when they don't play along.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean o ye of the double-standard pals...

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...s-and-Where-Do-They-Fit&p=5179685#post5179685

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[Danoh]

What I quoted comes straight from the Bible. Just because you say that my comments are full of holes means nothing. Prove it!

And I still wait for your evidence that Paul was preaching the gospel of grace to Gentiles at Acts 9. You said that earlier you did that but that is a laugh.

At Acts 7, Israel was now Uncircumcision, or heathen - Matt. 12; Acts 7 & 8; Rom. 2; Gal. 1 & 2.

Paul preaches to them - as Uncircumcision - or heathen, in Acts 9.

And then does the same among the Gentiles in Acts 9 per Acts 15; Gal. 1, etc.

Another set of passages being - o never mind.

You're just like the Hybrids - not only do you fail to see the obvious, you are so married you to your books based errors just as they are to the erroneous writings and teachings of their Hybrid teachers, but just like them, you then assert this actual MADist never laid out the relevant passages.

And you sure get riled up about it all.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5: 6-8.