What is your answer to "The Race Problem"?

[Alate_One]

The problem in America is not race or skin pigment. It is an unassimilated culture. Raise a black child with white parents whose family is stable and the chances of them becoming incarcerated drops to white levels.

That is true. I would not say unassimilated culture, as much as segregation and other structural issues. It's not enforced by law anymore but the effects of past policies are maintaining the skin pigment based policy. White america didn't WANT to allow blacks to assimilate when the time was best to do so (right after the civil war) and to some extent still it doesn't. It wants black people to essentially become white people and not talk about the race problem, and blame it on black people themselves - see the popularity of Ben Carson and Herman Cain. Black politicians that tell white conservatives what they want to hear are very popular in the conservative camp.

 

[ok doser]

It wants black people to essentially become white people...

in terms of being law-abiding and valuing education, hard work and achievement?

sure

why not? :idunno:

 

[Alate_One]

in terms of being law-abiding and valuing education, hard work and achievement?

sure

why not? :idunno:

You've just shown your stereotypes in your statement. Those aren't "white" characteristics. Plenty of whites don't value education, and are not law abiding and do not love hard work. I can probably find you a lot more white students fitting that profile than black ones.

I would say a disdain of education seems to be an american value with a slighly higher rate among conservatives. Education/science is for "ebil liberals". Being too smart gets you labeled a nerd. etc.

 

[ClimateSanity]

That is true. I would not say unassimilated culture, as much as segregation and other structural issues. It's not enforced by law anymore but the effects of past policies are maintaining the skin pigment based policy. White america didn't WANT to allow blacks to assimilate when the time was best to do so (right after the civil war) and to some extent still it doesn't. It wants black people to essentially become white people and not talk about the race problem, and blame it on black people themselves - see the popularity of Ben Carson and Herman Cain. Black politicians that tell white conservatives what they want to hear are very popular in the conservative camp.

There is a set of behaviors any person can do to be successful in America. It also entails a set of beliefs and attitudes. I call it the successful culture. Much of white America adopts this system and to the extent it becomes who they are, is the extent they succeed. Some call it acting white. This is racist as many whites don't adopt this system and as a result, end up in the lower classes.

I'm not sure whites want blacks to act white, they just want to stop being blamed for their problems and the chip on the shoulder attitude that accompanies it. When forced segregation was in effect, all it did was serve to further inflame further tension.

I'm sorry , but the inner city black culture is the cause of higher incarceration and other social problems. I cannot see how calling white people unintentional racists is going to solve this problem. Whites just want to live their lives and not have this race problem as I see it. They especially resent the idea that some how they are responsible for keeping the problem from being fixed. If there was no racism before from whites, racism is induced from these misguided accusations.

I personally think inter racial marriage is one way to start fixing this. My fiance is black and I see other white men with black women and this is good in my opinion. However, a white woman marrying a black inner city man does not solve the problem because the white woman usually adopts the inner city culture which solves nothing.

 

[ok doser]

You've just shown your stereotypes in your statement. Those aren't "white" characteristics. Plenty of whites don't value education, and are not law abiding and do not love hard work. I can probably find you a lot more white students fitting that profile than black ones.

I would say a disdain of education seems to be an american value with a slighly higher rate among conservatives. Education/science is for "ebil liberals". Being too smart gets you labeled a nerd. etc.

ummm - weren't we talking about black incarceration rates being way higher than white incarceration rates?

 

[Alate_One]

72% of blacks are born to unmarried mothers
and
you want to blame racism?

Less current racism (though there is some) than institutional structures that keep black people in poverty and poor educational systems. Mostly due to legacies of institutional racism that have never been properly addressed.

 

[Alate_One]

ummm - weren't we talking about black incarceration rates being way higher than white incarceration rates?

Yes, but you made the leap of they have higher incarceration rates to mean they must not value education, hard work or achievement.

There's no evidence to say that one (assuming it is even more prevalent in the black community than the white - you provided no evidence) causes the other.

 

[ok doser]

Less current racism (though there is some) than institutional structures that keep black people in poverty and poor educational systems. Mostly due to legacies of institutional racism that have never been properly addressed.

not persuaded by this argument - i grew up in and lived in a suburb of rochester, ny most of my life - the state abolished slavery in the early 1800's and the city has a long history of welcoming abolitionist and progressive movers and shakers, just like buffalo and much of upstate ny

heck, when the south was brutally abusing their blacks, rochester was welcoming Frederick Douglas and helping him publish The North Star

fast forward to the modern era?

rochester has the highest murder rates in upstate ny

rochester's urban school district, in which i taught, scores dead last in upstate ny school districts, in virtually any measure of achievement

and it's all tied to the popularity of the poor, black, urban culture of failure - drugs, gangs, violence, and fatherless children


not "institutionalized racism" or "poor education systems"

in fact, the suburban district in which i also taught, always ranked in the top 5% of upstate school districts, while spending 13 grand per student as opposed to rochester's 17 grand

that's 31% more in funding to achieve failure

 

[ok doser]

Yes, but you made the leap of they have higher incarceration rates to mean they must not value education, hard work or achievement.

i suspect that many of those who find themselves incarcerated don't value education, hard work or achievement


and more of them are black than white

:think:

 

[chrysostom]

Less current racism (though there is some) than institutional structures that keep black people in poverty and poor educational systems. Mostly due to legacies of institutional racism that have never been properly addressed.

instead of properly addressing it
their president decided to give them healthcare
is that more important than having a father?

 

[Alate_One]

There is a set of behaviors any person can do to be successful in America. It also entails a set of beliefs and attitudes. I call it the successful culture.

Here's the problem that I showed in my OP.

Even if you, as a black person take that "successful culture" and get a college degree, your rate of unemployment is still higher than a white person with the same education level.

We whites want to believe the playing field is equal, but the evidence shows it isn't. And seeing that I have a lot less blame on people who feel angry that the system is rigged against them, because it is. It's certainly better than it used to be, but I see kids in the classroom coming in unprepared all the time, both white and black, but more american white kids are prepared than american black kids. International students of any race are typically better prepared than most US students.

I'm not sure whites want blacks to act white, they just want to stop being blamed for their problems and the chip on the shoulder attitude that accompanies it. When forced segregation was in effect, all it did was serve to further inflame further tension.

Not true and it wasn't enforced very widely, only in some schools. And now that enforcement is down, schools are segregated again and educational outcomes are worse.

I'm sorry , but the inner city black culture is the cause of higher incarceration and other social problems.

"Inner city black culture" was created by government policy that forced black people into ghettoes and kept them out of white suburbs by denying them credit for home ownership programs.

I cannot see how calling white people unintentional racists is going to solve this problem. Whites just want to live their lives and not have this race problem as I see it.

Of course they do! That's what most whites wanted in the 1960s too. We all would like to live our lives and ignore the problems in society. But as Christians, that's not our role. Additionally if we really believe in the American dream and experiment, everyone should have the same opportunity to succeed. Right now they don't and the problem doesn't seem to be improving much.

They especially resent the idea that some how they are responsible for keeping the problem from being fixed. If there was no racism before from whites, racism is induced from these misguided accusations.

It isn't misguided, it is the truth. There's not a lot individual whites other than being more welcoming to other races in all aspects of life, but it's a difficult problem to solve precisely because in most cases it isn't intentional.

I personally think inter racial marriage is one way to start fixing this. My fiance is black and I see other white men with black women and this is good in my opinion. However, a white woman marrying a black inner city man does not solve the problem because the white woman usually adopts the inner city culture which solves nothing.

I agree intermarriage will help, but there are a lot more barriers and issues than the ones you cite.

 

[Alate_One]

instead of properly addressing it
their president decided to give them healthcare
is that more important than having a father?

Do you think the president could have given them a father? I think you would find government policy that somehow mandated that to be oppressive in the extreme.

The president is being a role model being married to his wife and raising two young girls while holding the presidency. That's more than the average politician can say he is doing for the black family.

 

[ok doser]

... government policy that forced black people into ghettoes ....

not in rochester

in rochester, blacks moved into formerly german or irish working class neighborhoods that had been well kept and crime free and turned them into crime ridden, drug-plagued hellholes

 

[chrysostom]

Do you think the president could have given them a father?

well he did a lot for two guys living together

 

[Alate_One]

i suspect that many of those who find themselves incarcerated don't value education, hard work or achievement


and more of them are black than white

:think:

But there are many more people that don't value education and hard work that AREN'T incarcerated.

We know that there are far more white drug users than blacks and yet there are still more blacks incarcerated for drug use.

:think:

 

[rexlunae]

Rexlunae, a brief corollary to my previous point:

If you want me to care about the disparity, you'll have to do one of two things:

I honestly don't care whether you care or not. I don't give unreasonable people that much control over me. My purpose here is to poke holes in your racism-justifying view of criminal justice.

1. You'll have to start pointing out a whole bunch of innocent black people who are in jail.

There certainly are plenty of cases. But my point is about how we treat the guilty. You seem to be just fine with people who are guilty of some crime being treated unfairly based on race.

2. You'll have to start pointing to a bunch of guilty black people who are in jail, and tell me about how the arresting officers would have made a better use of police department time, resources, manpower, etc. by patrolling area A and arresting x, y and z non-black criminals instead, who were actually guilty of worse crimes. And even then, you'd have to show that the only or primary reason why they didn't patrol that area instead and arrest those non-black criminals is racially motivated.

It's a simple selection bias. You find the thing that you were looking for in the place that you've looked before because that's the only place you look. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.

If you want me to care about the disparity in sentencing, you'll have to show me that the cases that you're citing are actually equal in everything but race and sentence. [In fact, I seriously doubt that they are.]

Yes, I think that demand is carefully crafted to be essentially unanswerable.

If you can't do any of these, then your objection is: "But they're black! It's not fair. WHAAAAAAAH!"

And I'm not impressed. Sorry.

Traditio: Opposed to fairness. Got it.

 

[Alate_One]

well he did a lot for two guys living together

He didn't. That'd be your republican supreme court. :chuckle:

The two Obama appointees replaced already liberal justices.

But that's rather far off the topic of this thread.

 

[ok doser]

But there are many more people that don't value education and hard work that AREN'T incarcerated.

while i suspect that is true, i also suspect there's an inverse correlation between academic achievement and incarceration

We know that there are far more white drug users than blacks and yet there are still more blacks incarcerated for drug use.

no argument from me here - i think all drug users and sellers should be executed, swiftly and painfully

 

[Alate_One]

not in rochester

in rochester, blacks moved into formerly german or irish working class neighborhoods that had been well kept and crime free and turned them into crime ridden, drug-plagued hellholes

Because all the whites moved to clean nice suburbs leaving concentrated poverty behind.

Whenever you concentrate poverty, no matter the cause you make a giant societal mess. Canada discovered that when they emulated our public housing.

 

[Alate_One]

while i suspect that is true, i also suspect there's an inverse correlation between academic achievement and incarceration

There is and a lot of other societal problems. But it's hard to achieve a college degree if your area public schools are a mess.

no argument from me here - i think all drug users and sellers should be executed, swiftly and painfully

Wow, do you include alcohol in that? Or is there something more magically wrong about Marijuana vs. alcohol?