What is your answer to "The Race Problem"?

Alate_One

Well-known member
You want to show me that there's systematic racism? Ok. Then show me empirical evidence for systematic racism. Show me judges who came out and said: "I put him away for 5 years because he's a [racial epithet inserted here]."
You don't have to be intentionally racist to produce a racist outcome. You do understand that, right?

I'd highly recommend you read the book I linked in the OP. It's written by sociologists who collected a fair bit of data of their own.

2. But fine. Let's look at the argument as stated. I'd simply deny premise 2. I don't think that either systematic bias or personal fault alone is what produces the disparity.
But you haven't put forward a rational alternative.
 

Traditio

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You don't have to be intentionally racist to produce a racist outcome. You do understand that, right?

You are the one saying that the outcome is racist. I just don't see it. I see a racial disparity. I don't see a "racist" disparity.

I'd highly recommend you read the book I linked in the OP. It's written by sociologists who collected a fair bit of data of their own.

Briefly summarize the arguments and conclusions?

But you haven't put forward a rational alternative.

Except, I did. Read my last posting.

"There's an interplay of both system and individual which ultimately produces the disparity. There are black criminals and there are policemen who have placed themselves in a really good position to catch them. That produces black convicts.

That's neither systematic racism nor solely a matter of racial fault.

Again: I see no problem with this."

And ultimately, this is the problem I have with you, Rexlunae, and the rest of you "limp-wrist liberals" (Judge Dredd, America). You want to argue that it's racist and unjust for policemen to put themselves in a good position to catch black criminals? Then what are you really arguing for? Leaving crimes, committed repeatedly and out in the open, unpunished. Letting career criminals stay on the streets.

And sorry, but I think that's just ridiculous and destructive to political society, the State and law and order.

If preserving law and order means that black criminals have to go to jail for a long time, then I'm cool with that.

I feel safer because of it.
 

aikido7

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Forgive our own bad behavior ("trespasses" or "debts") as we forgive others.

Jesus taught that forgiveness is reciprocal.

Matthew 7:3 and Luke 6:41 urge us to look at the planks or logs in our own eyes first before attempting to point them out in another person.

One of the criteria of modern historicity and methodology says that if an ancient saying is recorded by different authors, its truthfulness is seriously considered.
 

aikido7

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You're looking at him.

racebaiting.jpg

Supposedly from Jesus:

Luke 6:37
Matthew 7:1
John 7:24, 8:7
James 4:11

Two suggestions in one:
Proverbs 31:9

Sorry, I know you must be busy. This is a lot of Bible study for you.
But I could have just as easily brought to your attention many, many other examples.

The Buddha and Confucius talked about the Golden Rule.
These are examples of the same thing, but supposedly they are from the preaching of Jesus.
 

aikido7

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Has anybody ever compared the slave states of the 1860s with today's conservative, GOP states ?

They are virtually the same.

Shameful.
 

Traditio

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Traditio:

Do you have any interest in changing the current situation?
If so- what is your suggestion?

Big contributors to criminality:

1. Bad upbringing.
2. Poverty
3. Lack of education
4. Mental illness

You want to change the current situation? Then you have to address all four.

Don't get me wrong. I think that, ultimately, capitalism is indirectly responsible for a whole lot of crime. When human life is disvalued and treated as a mere commodity to be bought and sold (and here, let no right winger on this site claim that he does anything else; it's implicit in his conception of the value of labor), what on earth do you expect to be the result?

But again, and here I insist on this point, the solution is NOT to accuse the criminal justice system of racism, demonize the police and complain about the fact that guilty, dangerous, convicted criminals are in prison.

That's just stupid.
 

chair

Well-known member
Big contributors to criminality:

1. Bad upbringing.
2. Poverty
3. Lack of education
4. Mental illness

You want to change the current situation? Then you have to address all four.

Don't get me wrong. I think that, ultimately, capitalism is indirectly responsible for a whole lot of crime. When human life is disvalued and treated as a mere commodity to be bought and sold (and here, let no right winger on this site claim that he does anything else; it's implicit in his conception of the value of labor), what on earth do you expect to be the result?

But again, and here I insist on this point, the solution is NOT to accuse the criminal justice system of racism, demonize the police and complain about the fact that guilty, dangerous, convicted criminals are in prison.

That's just stupid.

I finally got something positive out of you. Why was this so hard?

Note that the first three (out of four) causes that you list are all related. Note also that it doesn't seem that capitalism is the cause of any of them.
 

Traditio

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I finally got something positive out of you. Why was this so hard?

I did give you the run around. Mea culpa. :p

Note that the first three (out of four) causes that you list are all related. Note also that it doesn't seem that capitalism is the cause of any of them.

You don't think that capitalism has anything to do with poverty, lack of education or bad upbringing?

What do you understand by "capitalism"?
 

chair

Well-known member
I did give you the run around. Mea culpa. :p

I got the distinct impression (one that still remains, by the way) that you don't really care, as long as there is Justice.
You don't think that capitalism has anything to do with poverty, lack of education or bad upbringing?

What do you understand by "capitalism"?

I am not going to play the "definition game". Most countries that are considered "capitalistic" do spend public money on education.
 

ccfromsc

New member
I am getting in the middle of this at the end. I do have one comment: ever notice how many churches are one race on Sunday? It is as if the most racist day in the country is Sunday at 11am. Has anyone else noticed that?
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
You don't have to be intentionally racist to produce a racist outcome.

Your statement is actually racist. If it is not intentional, it is just how it is, then for you to see races shows you are racist. You see through a race filter.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
yes, and the conclusion ive come to, is entitlement mentality created by liberals, and teaching them that everything is the fault of the white man, instead of teaching responsibility.

By 'entitlement mentality' I can only presume you're referring to welfare, although how having a safety net for people out of or unable to work equates to what you suggest is a mystery. What would you do, get rid of it? Because depriving people of any aid who are already on the breadline wouldn't exacerbate any problems already going on?

Your latter is just as bemusing...
 

The Berean

Well-known member
Has anybody ever compared the slave states of the 1860s with today's conservative, GOP states ?

They are virtually the same.

Shameful.

Except for the fact that those slave states were run by Democrats when slavery was legal. Shameful, right? :think:
 

The Berean

Well-known member
I am getting in the middle of this at the end. I do have one comment: ever notice how many churches are one race on Sunday? It is as if the most racist day in the country is Sunday at 11am. Has anyone else noticed that?

Tha's certainly not true here in the Silicon Valley where I live.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Except for the fact that those slave states were run by Democrats when slavery was legal. Shameful, right? :think:
Except that everyone knows that all those southern racist democrats turned republican when two democratic presidents in a row supported racial and gender equality in the 1960s, that put an end to the 'Jim Crow' laws in the south. And they remain republicans to this day, because the republican party still stands against equality.

So racism, sexism, and inequality in general are still a significant tie that binds southerners to the republican party. And the Bible belt culture doesn't seem to have done much to help mitigate that "unholy" alliance, either.
 

Traditio

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I got the distinct impression (one that still remains, by the way) that you don't really care, as long as there is Justice.

I do think that determinate steps should be taken to solve those problems, but not, and note what I say, at the expense of law and order, not at the expense of public safety and not at the expense of justice.

I fully agree with the social liberals in saying that there are social, economic and psychological factors which contribute to crime, and steps should be taken to alleviate them.

Where I disagree with the social liberals is their attempt to exculpate criminals and demonize the police.

I am not going to play the "definition game". Most countries that are considered "capitalistic" do spend public money on education.

By "capitalism" I understand the economic system whereby goods and services are distributed according to the principles of a free market. Under the capitalist economic system and philosophy, everything takes on a monetary value, everything is evaluated in terms of supply and demand.

Including labor. Labor becomes just another commodity to be bought and sold and it must be evaluated in terms of the principles of free market. The question that the employers ask, and which the employees must answer, is: "What do you do which is worth such and such a wage?"

The question, of course, which should be asked is: "Who are you, what kind of being are you, for whom such and such a wage is the ransom of a decent, dignified lifestyle?" This question, however, cannot and does not arise in capitalism.

Because capitalism subordinates persons to the economy, whereas, in point of fact, the economy should be subordinated to and ordered to persons.

And note, the answers to these two questions (i.e., "what is your labor worth to me" and "what are you worth, you being the kind of being for whom such and such a wage is the ransom to be paid for you to live a decent lifestyle") are not the same.

The almost necessary result of this is unemployment, underemployment, rampant attitudes of materialism and consumerism, rampant wealth and income inequality, poverty, etc.

And people, unlike unsold groceries, aren't the kinds of beings who will just sit idly on a shelf because they remain "unsold." This leads to crime, and capitalism itself, I say, in large part, is the culprit, bears culpability, for the material conditions which facilitate crime.

Capitalism is morally bankrupt, and so are the forms of protestant Christianity which support it.
 

GuySmiley

Well-known member
Except that everyone knows that all those southern racist democrats turned republican when two democratic presidents in a row supported racial and gender equality in the 1960s, that put an end to the 'Jim Crow' laws in the south. And they remain republicans to this day, because the republican party still stands against equality.

So racism, sexism, and inequality in general are still a significant tie that binds southerners to the republican party. And the Bible belt culture doesn't seem to have done much to help mitigate that "unholy" alliance, either.
Could you link to the Republican party platform where it stands against equality? I cant find it.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Your statement is actually racist. If it is not intentional, it is just how it is, then for you to see races shows you are racist. You see through a race filter.

Someone that sees race is not racist. I simply recognize the society is racialized (Many things in life are different because of your race) and I think that's a bad thing.

Racism is
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.



I see no race as superior and hold that any differences are not due to any inherent characteristics of a particular race. Especially since race has no biological basis, only a social one.
 
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