ECT What is the Will of God . . .

Rosenritter

New member
Your mis-understanding of the substance of "earnest" given the new born son of God which it signifies as being a Relationship with God by faith receiving into my soul, His own 'DNA' as being the seal of His being a Father to me.. ". . . . by faith "I" stand." 2 Corinthians 1:24 (KJV)

Question: While on Earth and before the cross, did Jesus experience eternal life?

Here's a clue: ". . . whosoever lives [now] and believes in me shall never die." John 11:26 (KJV)

THe "earnest" of the Spirit began on the day of Pentecost. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV) . . The "Promise of the Father"; the "Comforter" Who is standing in for Jesus while He makes intercession for us at the Throne of God in Heaven..

The earnest of the spirit would be the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by that eventful Pentecost in Acts. Given your wording I am not sure if you agree with this (would you please clarify?) And would you also agree that the Spirit can be both given and taken away, as David alludes in this Psalm?

Psa 51:11 KJV
(11) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

To straightly answer your question, I will ask that you please read carefully, as I am making sure to answer carefully. I do not think I could call Jesus's life on Earth before the cross as eternal life... for reason that he tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2:9). Eternal life means a life that does not end, and for death to have any meaning in this context, eternal life would take application upon his quickening by the Spirit with his resurrection. Essentially, on this potentially tricky question I'm looking at the meaning of "death" vs. "eternal life" which are opposites.
Spoiler
If you were to ask if Jesus experienced eternal life before he was born of the Holy Spirit and begotten of the Father, I would say yes, as per John 17:5 he shared the glory of the Father before the world was. If this seems confusing that touches more on the nature of the incarnation which is itself a subject that bears some discussion. And if you were to ask me if he experienced eternal life upon his resurrection and ascension to glory, I would also say yes. But that was not your question.

If I may ask you to look at the immediate context of John 11:26 you will see that this passage provides no contradiction to my position, but rather reinforces it:

Joh 11:25-26 KJV
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

As for the proclamation that those that live in him shall never die, when does this go into effect? He has already acknowledged that this life is in the resurrection, and for resurrection to have any application one must first die. "Thou he were dead, yet shall he live." If one dies, one does not literally possess eternal life. The promise of eternal life "shall never die" takes effect at a later date.

The promise is currently in our possession, the fulfillment of that promise is in the resurrection. The proof that it is not yet fulfilled is in that in Adam all men die, it is appointed unto men once to die. If you can still die then by definition eternal life has not yet been bestowed.
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
I will as well. ;)

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11 (KJV) Can that not be said as well of any Spirit filled assembly? I think so.

No. The Holy Spirit does not fill assemblies....only individuals.



Read Rev 2:4,5 KJV re the church at Ephesus. Notice how it reads they "left" their first love and not to have "lost" it. How could that be possible and what was the penalty, the warning given by the Lord? Now note more what Paul has to say here: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9 (KJV

Now, what does it mean for the Ephesus church if she "leaves her first love"? Jesus said this: ". . .I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Revelation 2:5 (KJV) . . What does the "candlestick" speak of/represent if applied to an individual presumptuous Christian?

That would be an outlandish hypothetical since that text does NOT apply to an individual Christian presumptuous or otherwise.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The earnest of the spirit would be the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by that eventful Pentecost in Acts.

No, it is the body which saints will receive at the time of the rapture. First, let's look at this verse:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" (Eph.1:13-14).​

The Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit and will remain sealed until the day of redemption:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (Eph.4:30).​

In the following passage we can see that when the Holy Spirit served as an earnest of the purchased possession that possession is the "redemption of the body":

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:63).​
 
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Cross Reference

New member
The earnest of the spirit would be the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by that eventful Pentecost in Acts. Given your wording I am not sure if you agree with this (would you please clarify?)

I believe I wrote it with in mind. So yes, I agree.

And would you also agree that the Spirit can be both given and taken away, as David alludes in this Psalm?

Psa 51:11 KJV
(11) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.


Taken away or left it by the born again candidate who 'backslided' from co-operating 'in' Him? In the Holy Spirit, there can be no compromise.

]To straightly answer your question, I will ask that you please read carefully, as I am making sure to answer carefully. I do not think I could call Jesus's life on Earth before the cross as eternal life... for reason that he tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2:9). Eternal life means a life that does not end, and for death to have any meaning in this context, eternal life would take application upon his quickening by the Spirit with his resurrection. Essentially, on this potentially tricky question I'm looking at the meaning of "death" vs. "eternal life" which are opposites.

I agree.

If you were to ask if Jesus experienced eternal life before he was born of the Holy Spirit and begotten of the Father, I would say yes, as per John 17:5 he shared the glory of the Father before the world was. If this seems confusing that touches more on the nature of the incarnation which is itself a subject that bears some discussion. And if you were to ask me if he experienced eternal life upon his resurrection and ascension to glory, I would also say yes. But that was not your question.

If I may ask you to look at the immediate context of John 11:26 you will see that this passage provides no contradiction to my position, but rather reinforces it:

Joh 11:25-26 KJV
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


As for the proclamation that those that live in him shall never die, when does this go into effect?

When we are reconciled with God? How can it be otherwise? Is not death swallowed up in [His] victory?

He has already acknowledged that this life is in the resurrection,

"The ressurection" being "His" Life by "His" resurrection by the Holy Spirit..

and for resurrection to have any application one must first die.

". . .if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11 (KJV)

"Thou he were dead, yet shall he live." If one dies, one does not literally possess eternal life. The promise of eternal life "shall never die" takes effect at a later date.

Why do you want to believe that and not the words of Jesus/Paul?

"The "Promise" is currently in our possession"
,
. . for us who are Born again to live out our "unglorified eternal life as Jesus lived out His.

the fulfillment of that promise is in the resurrection.
. . . . It is in our Glorification. The Promise was made possible by His Resurrection.

The proof that it is not yet fulfilled is in that in Adam all men die,

And all in Christ continue living in a Soul-Spirit state in the presence of God.

By this know that Jesus was the last of Adam's race to die "IF" we have been born again.

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:9-11 (KJV) SEE JOHN 20:22. THINK, NEW CREATION.

it is appointed unto men once to die. If you can still die then by definition eternal life has not yet been bestowed.

You are speaking of the physical body of man not his soul or spirit which if in Christ are eternally joined to Him.

Do a review of the account of the rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:20ff to understand what happened to the saints who died in the OT awaiting Jesus to set them free. It could only be in this manner when sins were forgiven by the spilling of the blood of animals..
 
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Rosenritter

New member
No, it is the body which saints will receive at the time of the rapture. First, let's look at this verse:
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" (Eph.1:13-14).

If you mean by "rapture" the "catching up of the saints" when Christ returns, this has another name as well, a biblical name. It's also called the resurrection of the dead, or the first resurrection, when we shall "put on" immortality. I prefer the biblical name for clarity.

As for your statement that the "earnest" of the spirit is that body that we receive when Christ returns, that defies the meaning of the word "earnest" which is a thing received in place of the greater thing to be received in full later. It also would be the first time I have heard anyone make that claim before. Besides, your own passages would show that incorrect.

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. That means the earnest (what we have now) is the Holy Spirit. This carries us through until the day of redemption. Perhaps you misspoke and we are not actually in disagreement?
 

Cross Reference

New member
"We are sealed with the Holy Spirit "UNTO/FOR" the day of redemption, Eph 4:30 KJV, implies an event, in this verse, a finalization of something that has already happened..

If it is "until" the day of Redemption then we are presently not redeemed and have a huge problem.

What translation are you using?
 

Rosenritter

New member
I believe I wrote it with in mind. So yes, I agree.

Taken away or left it by the born again candidate who 'backslided' from co-operating 'in' Him? In the Holy Spirit, there can be no compromise.

I agree.

I understand that we do agree that the earnest of the spirit means the Holy Spirit, which is given in the here and now.
I am not sure whether we agree as to whether the Holy Spirit can be taken from us, in the context of Hebrews 10:26-29.
We seem to agree that Jesus cannot be precisely said to have eternal life until after he was raised from death.

When we are reconciled with God? How can it be otherwise? Is not death swallowed up in [His] victory?

I understand that we can be reconciled to God in the here and now, as Romans 5:10, 2 Corinthians 5:18, and Colossians 1:21 are all in the past tense. I understand the reconciliation to have already begun and still to be completed in the yet future (Colossians 1:20).

"Death shall be swallowed up in victory" (Isaiah 25:8) is accomplished at the return of Christ and the resurrection of the saints, when we are changed (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). Paul says that is precisely the time when that passage is fulfilled, and it is a specific future event that affects all at the same time.

So if Jesus could not be said have eternal life while he was still subject to death, why would we be said to have eternal life while still subject to death? There is an answer (it is not rhetorical) ... because we can be said to have eternal life in the sense of having the promise of eternal life that has yet to be redeemed. This redemption of the promise remains conditional ... as indicated by the aforementioned Hebrews 10:26-29.

"The ressurection" being "His" Life by "His" resurrection by the Holy Spirit..

". . .if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11 (KJV)

Paul is specific that it is not Christ's resurrection in the past that fulfills "Death, where is thy victory" but the future resurrection of the saints. He dedicates a whole chapter to the topic.

Why do you want to believe that and not the words of Jesus/Paul?

I most certainly am believing their words. Single passages are not meant to be interpreted outside of context. Paul says that we do not have immortality (a synonym for eternal life) until that moment when we are changed... in the twinkling of an eye after the resurrection of the dead saints.

And all in Christ continue living in a Soul-Spirit state in the presence of God.

I am not confident that there is a solid basis to say that we all "continue living in a soul-spirit state in the presence of God" while we are yet upon this earth, corruptible and not yet changed.

You are speaking of the physical body of man not his soul or spirit which if in Christ are eternally joined to Him.

Until we are changed, we (any all of mankind) remain creatures that require physical components to live, breathe, and have being. After we are changed and given a body and existence that is of incorruptible spirit, then we may inherit the kingdom of heaven, and then shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do a review of the account of the rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:20ff to understand what happened to the saints who died in the OT awaiting Jesus to set them free. It could only be in this manner when sins were forgiven by the spilling of the blood of animals..

There are no saints in otherworldly existence, which is plainly shown that Jesus did prove the resurrection in that God could not be called the "God of the living" if Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not rise. If they existed and could speak and talk they would have no need of a resurrection for them to be considered "living" as they would be "living as a spirit" or the like.

Luke 16 contains the parable often simply referred to as "Lazarus and the rich man" ... it is surrounded above and below by parable, and it continues in the same fashion as a parable when it invokes a fantastic (imaginary) environment that would even find recognition with his audience for the purpose of illustrating the meaning of the parable. It is not a doctrinal statement that the dead are alive... far from it.

Each of its characters exists because of symbolic meaning. Lazarus represents those outside the house of Israel... (he is not an Old Testament saint) and this can be demonstrated from the elements both within the parable and his connotation with dogs. I think it would be good to review this parable... so may I ask you a question? If Lazarus is gentile, what is the name of the rich man?

Matthew 15:22-27 KJV
(22) And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
(23) But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
(24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(25) Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
(26) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
(27) And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Luke 16:20-21 KJV
(20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
(21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Given what we are told about the rich man, and using similar logic to follow the clues (it is already embedded in scripture) what is the name of this rich man of whom the Pharisees were so familiar that he did not need a name?
 

Rosenritter

New member
"We are sealed with the Holy Spirit "UNTO/FOR" the day of redemption, Eph 4:30 KJV, implies an event, in this verse, a finalization of something that has already happened..

If it is "until" the day of Redemption then we are presently not redeemed and have a huge problem.

What translation are you using?

King James translation, Cambridge 1769 edition, words of Jesus Christ our Lord in red. But we would see the same if using the Geneva or Tyndale's version as well.... and even the NIV would say the same here.

Luke 21:27-28 KJV
(27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Spoiler
Luke 21:27-28 Geneva
(27) And then shall they see the Sonne of man come in a cloude, with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things beginne to come to passe, then looke vp, and lift vp your heades: for your redemption draweth neere.

Luke 21:27-28 Tyndale
(27) And then shall they se the sonne of ma come in a clowde with power and greate glory.
(28) When these thinges begyn to come to passe: then loke vp and lifte vp youre heddes for youre redemcion draweth neye.

Luke 21:27-28 NIV
(27) At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."


The day of redemption is a specific day yet to come, it's the same day when Paul says that it shall be fulfilled "Death is swallowed up in victory."
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
As for your statement that the "earnest" of the spirit is that body that we receive when Christ returns, that defies the meaning of the word "earnest" which is a thing received in place of the greater thing to be received in full later.

Yes, and the Christian is sealed with the spirit and that serves as the "earnest" for the greater spiritual thing, the spiritual body the Christian will put on when caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

Yes, the day of redemption speaks of the redemption of the new, spiritual body:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:63).​

Then when a Christian puts on the new spiritual body then sealing with the spirit is no longer needed--"until the day of redemption...the redemption of our body."
 

Rosenritter

New member
Yes, and the Christian is sealed with the spirit and that serves as the "earnest" for the greater spiritual thing, the spiritual body the Christian will put on when caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

Yes, the day of redemption speaks of the redemption of the new, spiritual body:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:63).​

Then when a Christian puts on the new spiritual body then sealing with the spirit is no longer needed--"until the day of redemption...the redemption of our body."

Hurrah, mark this day! You and I have a post with which we are in total agreement.
 

Cross Reference

New member
King James translation, Cambridge 1769 edition, words of Jesus Christ our Lord in red. But we would see the same if using the Geneva or Tyndale's version as well.... and even the NIV would say the same here.

Luke 21:27-28 KJV
(27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Spoiler
Luke 21:27-28 Geneva
(27) And then shall they see the Sonne of man come in a cloude, with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things beginne to come to passe, then looke vp, and lift vp your heades: for your redemption draweth neere.

Luke 21:27-28 Tyndale
(27) And then shall they se the sonne of ma come in a clowde with power and greate glory.
(28) When these thinges begyn to come to passe: then loke vp and lifte vp youre heddes for youre redemcion draweth neye.

Luke 21:27-28 NIV
(27) At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."


The day of redemption is a specific day yet to come, it's the same day when Paul says that it shall be fulfilled "Death is swallowed up in victory."

I have no argument with what is written. It is your comprehension of it that I believe is incomplete.

Redemption is the foundation upon which a new creation, the second global covenant Authored by Jesus Christ, is built upon. Fit that into your thinking because that fact cannot be ignored.

Not unlike the redemption of those raised with Jesus when He resurrected so will ours be in the day of our redemption [catching away of the multi-membered Body of Christ] from this materialistic world in which we presently live which might now be said to be the grave of those without Christ.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Question: When does the Holy Spirit seal and on whom is the seal applied? Try John 20:22. Note that is was after He had *ascended to His Father to be 'inspected(?)' and before Acts 2 that Jesus made application.

*esus said, "Cease clinging to me. I have not ascended yet to the Father, but go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and yours, to my God and yours.' Away went Mary of Magdala to the disciples with the news, "I have seen the Lord!"—telling them what he had said to her. On the evening of that same day—the first day of the week—though the disciples had gathered within closed doors for fear of the Jews, Jesus entered and stood among them, saying, "Peace be with you!" John 20:17-19 (MOFF)
 

Cross Reference

New member
Yes, and the Christian is sealed with the spirit and that serves as the "earnest" for the greater spiritual thing, the spiritual body the Christian will put on when caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.



Yes, the day of redemption speaks of the redemption of the new, spiritual body:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:63).​

Then when a Christian puts on the new spiritual body then sealing with the spirit is no longer needed--"until the day of redemption...the redemption of our body."

So what was Acts 2 all about that you can believe the Holy Spirit was no longer needed after having been sealed by the Holy Spirit? You are speaking of 2 manifestations of the Holy Spirit that have never ceased because of Jesus Christ?
 

Cross Reference

New member
King James translation, Cambridge 1769 edition, words of Jesus Christ our Lord in red. But we would see the same if using the Geneva or Tyndale's version as well.... and even the NIV would say the same here.

Luke 21:27-28 KJV
(27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Spoiler
Luke 21:27-28 Geneva
(27) And then shall they see the Sonne of man come in a cloude, with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things beginne to come to passe, then looke vp, and lift vp your heades: for your redemption draweth neere.

Luke 21:27-28 Tyndale
(27) And then shall they se the sonne of ma come in a clowde with power and greate glory.
(28) When these thinges begyn to come to passe: then loke vp and lifte vp youre heddes for youre redemcion draweth neye.

Luke 21:27-28 NIV
(27) At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."


The day of redemption is a specific day yet to come, it's the same day when Paul says that it shall be fulfilled "Death is swallowed up in victory."
Not if you use the word "UNTO". Another way of looking at it might make it more clear: "unto the day the new creation in Christ by the Redemptive act of the cross, summed up in Jesus Christ, will be revealed".. If you wish that to be an event, I'll buy it.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I have no argument with what is written. It is your comprehension of it that I believe is incomplete.

Redemption is the foundation upon which a new creation, the second global covenant Authored by Jesus Christ, is built upon. Fit that into your thinking because that fact cannot be ignored.

As to your meaning above, as to the application of that term redemption, is that something you can show by direct statement, or is that your own inference?

Romans 8:23 KJV
(23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Besides the passages above, it certainly does look like the redemption is a future event which is currently preceded by firstfruits of the Spirit (which is the earnest of our redemption and salvation.)

Not unlike the redemption of those raised with Jesus when He resurrected so will ours be in the day of our redemption [catching away of the multi-membered Body of Christ] from this materialistic world in which we presently live which might now be said to be the grave of those without Christ.

So I seem to have forgotten the original starting point. I think you were saying we are already had eternal life, whereas I was saying we have the conditional promise of eternal life which will be fulfilled when we are changed. I think the word "redemption" may be getting off track because it can also be used generically.

I think the point that brings this back into focus is that we are told multiple times that it is possible to believe and taste of the Holy Ghost and still fall away into damnation. As such, I don't see how one could say that we literally have eternal life if we are still subject to destruction and eternal damnation before we are changed. In that light, I don't see how verb tenses even have weight, given that they can be used with imprecision for the purpose of metaphor or expression of a most certain faith of the future fulfillment.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Not if you use the word "UNTO". Another way of looking at it might make it more clear: "unto the day the new creation in Christ by the Redemptive act of the cross, summed up in Jesus Christ, will be revealed".. If you wish that to be an event, I'll buy it.

The event that Jesus places in context with their redemption drawing nigh is his Second Coming. The event that Paul places in relation to "Death is swallowed up in victory" is when the dead are all raised together, and those left standing are then also changed. I understand these to be the same event.
 
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