ECT What is the Will of God . . .

[Cross Reference]

First, that verse says it's impossible....to renew them again unto repentance. Which would mean, of course, that they were eternally lost and could never repent.

Second, the Jews were "partakers" of the Holy Ghost when they ate of the manna and drank from the rock.

Third, the author speaks of "things that accompany salvation" though he thus speaks of the above.

Heb. 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.​

AND Fourth, but not least, Hebrews is written specifically to the Jews.

Nonsense! Your reasoning is radically skewed, incomplete at best.

 

[Cross Reference]

You are basing your understanding of Faith on the fact it's always something unseen . The faith or faithing process could go from the unseen , to the seen . Then , with the life of that specific faithing act reaching completion , it nolonger is Faith anymore but fact . At this point a new specific act of faithing must take it's place .

So what specific acts of faithing you are currently fulfilling are probably different from mine .

Paul said he lived by the very faith of the Son of God. What does that say about the faith you live by?

 

[Cross Reference]

Nonsense! Your reasoning is radically skewed, incomplete at best.

This was commanded of God, not a suggestion, given to Adam and Eve:

"Be fruitful, and multiply.", Gen 1:28.

Do you believe it was to them alone that that command was given? Who else might we say it was given, especially when considering the spreading of the Gospel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is indeed utter nonsense and the height of delusion to think that the ability to taste of and then forsake the Holy Ghost is limited to the Jew.

I never said that anyone forsake the Holy Spirit. The Jews who were referred to at Hebrews 6:4-6 were obviously saved when sanctified by the blood of the Lamb and here is what is said about them:

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10-14).
​

That sounds like me that there can be belief in the heart and that actual and from that full belief they can also be fallen away. The "once saved always saved" doctrine is dangerous, disregarding the warnings given to us, and nigh-close to Calvinism.

Your ideas match perfectly with what is taught in Rome. Do you really think that those whom the LORD has "perfected forever" can ever lose their salvation? Or perhaps you have been persuaded by some on this forum who say that "forever" can end?

In regard to "Once Saved Always Saved" the Christian is told that they already possess eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11). And here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom he gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

We also know that eternal life is a gift from the Lord (Ro.6:23) and we also know that once He gives the gift of eternal life He will not take it back:

"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).​

We also know that the word "eternal" means without end so when John wrote about the "eternal" life which a Christian has in the Son then we can know that life will never end. If that life could end then it was not eternal to begin with but John does describe it as being eternal.

Of course I never expected you to address these facts!

 

[Rosenritter]

You are basing your understanding of Faith on the fact it's always something unseen . The faith or faithing process could go from the unseen , to the seen . Then , with the life of that specific faithing act reaching completion , it nolonger is Faith anymore but fact . At this point a new specific act of faithing must take it's place .

So what specific acts of faithing you are currently fulfilling are probably different from mine .

Heb 11:1 KJV
(1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Rosenritter]

Your ideas match perfectly with what is taught in Rome. Do you really think that those whom the LORD has "perfected forever" can ever lose their salvation? Or perhaps you have been persuaded by some on this forum who say that "forever" can end?

In regard to "Once Saved Always Saved" the Christian is told that they already possess eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11). And here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom he gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

We also know that eternal life is a gift from the Lord (Ro.6:23) and we also know that once He gives the gift of eternal life He will not take it back:

"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).​

...

Of course I never expected you to address these facts!

Eternal life is a gift from God, and it is not actually received until we are made perfect. That being made perfect is not yesterday, it is not today, it is at the resurrection of the dead, which you ought to know if you were to ever read Paul's summary of the gospel.

1Co 15:1 KJV
(1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1Co 15:50-55 KJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Heb 11:35, 40 KJV
(35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

And before you start that "exclusively for the JEWS" nonsense, I will remind you that the word "us" includes the writer. That being made perfect is immortality and eternal life, which Paul in the gospel instructs is an event at a future time. If you think that you have God over a barrel and locked in and that you currently are immortal then you are sadly deluded and potentially in very grave danger as you ignore the warnings of Christ.

Luk 8:13-15 KJV
(13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
(14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
(15) But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

---------

Rom 11:29 KJV
(29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

And incidentally, your use of Romans 11:29 is misleading. The calling of God he is speaking of is the grafting in of the Gentiles with the Israelite, not being applied to a specific individual(s). The Gentile branch that has been grafted shall not be ungrafted: read the context! Can elsewhere says he can and will revoke mercies and salvation unto individuals who bear no fruit.

Mat 18:32-35 KJV
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Rev 2:4-5 KJV
(4) Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
(5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Even the Calvinists on this board will admit that we should heed these warnings as being real.

 

[Cross Reference]

"Eternal life is a gift from God, and it is not actually received until we are made perfect. That being made perfect is not yesterday, it is not today, it is at the resurrection of the dead, which you ought to know if you were to ever read Paul's summary of the gospel."

There are no scriptures to support that understanding whatsoever: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3ff (KJV)

That means NOW; beginning in this life continung into the next: Death to life unto "Self" in this life, resurrecting in newness of the spirit in this life unto our translation unto Glory in the next. This, of course, is for those who are born again and know they have been born again that they "know" to begin the possess of transforming their lives unto son-ship in the Father per 1John 1&2.

 

[Rosenritter]

"Eternal life is a gift from God, and it is not actually received until we are made perfect. That being made perfect is not yesterday, it is not today, it is at the resurrection of the dead, which you ought to know if you were to ever read Paul's summary of the gospel."

There are no scriptures to support that understanding whatsoever: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3ff (KJV)

That means NOW; beginning in this life continung into the next: Death to life unto "Self" in this life, reserrecting in newness of the spirit in this life unto our translation unto Glory in the next. This, of course, is for those who are born again and know they have been born again that they "know" to begin the possess of transforming their lives unto son-ship in the Father per 1John 1&2.

No, it does not mean you possess eternal life now... If you actually had eternal life now there would be no need for the earnest of that which is yet to be received. That's what the word "earnest" means. So please specify which part of that statement you disagree with, so that I may address your objection with the weight of scripture.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Eternal life is a gift from God, and it is not actually received until we are made perfect. That being made perfect is not yesterday, it is not today, it is at the resurrection of the dead, which you ought to know if you were to ever read Paul's summary of the gospel.

Then why did John tell those who received his epistles that they already possessed eternal life?:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

I will believe what John wrote there and not what you say. And I will also believe what the Lord Jesus said in the following verse instead of what you said:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

 

[Rosenritter]

Then why did John tell those who received his epistles that they already possessed eternal life?:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

No, it does not mean that it is already received. Do you know what the meaning of the word "earnest" means? We are given the Holy Spirit in earnest of our salvation and eternal life. Earnest is something that is given in place and in good faith of something that is not yet received. Look up the meaning of the word if you doubt.

If you think you are immortal right now you are mistaken.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, it does not mean that it is already received.

Once again you prove that you will deny anything in the Bible if it does not conform to your preconceived ideas. John tells the Christians that eternal life has already been given to them:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

If you are right then John would have written "that God will give to us eternal life."

And I never expected that you would ever believe what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Do you know what the meaning of the word "earnest" means? We are given the Holy Spirit in earnest of our salvation and eternal life.

The earnest of the spirit is in regard to the spiritual body which Christians will put on at the rapture.

 

[glorydaz]

The Devil knows his time is short. What does that tell us about what he believes and how deep in himself he believes it?

The verse is quite specific. But, you're correct, he trembles because he knows his time is short.

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.​

 

[glorydaz]

No, it does not mean that it is already received. Do you know what the meaning of the word "earnest" means? We are given the Holy Spirit in earnest of our salvation and eternal life. Earnest is something that is given in place and in good faith of something that is not yet received. Look up the meaning of the word if you doubt.

If you think you are immortal right now you are mistaken.

If you know the meaning of the word earnest, then you're saying it would be God who would back out of the deal. Are you sure you want to go there?

 

[Faither]

Heb 11:1 KJV
(1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Your mixing up the noun and the verb forms of Faith . I'm always addressing the verb .
Pistis is the noun , pisteuo is the verb .

Because of the mistranslation pisteuo , due to the English not having a verb form of the noun Faith , you are being forced to attempt and ask the noun to do what the verb should be doing .

 

[glorydaz]

Nonsense! Your reasoning is radically skewed, incomplete at best.

I'll take "incomplete". :chuckle:

There is so much about that text that can be said, and one that has caused much discension. But there is a lot more, and it certainly shouldn't be used to prove believers can lose their salvation, as was done in this case.

 

[Rosenritter]

Once again you prove that you will deny anything in the Bible if it does not conform to your preconceived ideas. John tells the Christians that eternal life has already been given to them:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

If you are right then John would have written "that God will give to us eternal life."

No, because when a thing is sure it can be given in the present tense even when it has future fulfillment. Do you recognize this passage?

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now tell me, was that child just born? Or was this referring to a future event? Come now, own up and be consistent and declare that Jesus was born back in the day of Isaiah... or retract your unfair criticism. "The child is born" is present tense, yet "his name shall be called"(and other statements following) were given in future tense. Clearly your rule doesn't hold up.

The earnest of the spirit is in regard to the spiritual body which Christians will put on at the rapture.

You might want to look up the dictionary meaning of the word earnest. Besides, you just contradicted your own premise! Did you read that passage first? You might want to.

2 Corinthians 1:22 KJV
(22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

The strict grammar has "given" as a past tense, yet you said this was a future event at the rapture. I don't need to argue against you, you give plenty of argument against yourself.

 

[Rosenritter]

Your mixing up the noun and the verb forms of Faith . I'm always addressing the verb .
Pistis is the noun , pisteuo is the verb .

Because of the mistranslation pisteuo , due to the English not having a verb form of the noun Faith , you are being forced to attempt and ask the noun to do what the verb should be doing .

James 2:19 KJV
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Seems to me that the Greek word is translated very well.

 

[Cross Reference]

I'll take "incomplete". :chuckle:

There is so much about that text that can be said, and one that has caused much discension. But there is a lot more, and it certainly shouldn't be used to prove believers can lose their salvation, as was done in this case.

I will as well.

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11 (KJV) Can that not be said as well of any Spirit filled assembly? I think so.

Read Rev 2:4,5 KJV re the church at Ephesus. Notice how it reads they "left" their first love and not to have "lost" it. How could that be possible and what was the penalty, the warning given by the Lord? Now note more what Paul has to say here: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9 (KJV

Now, what does it mean for the Ephesus church if she "leaves her first love"? Jesus said this: ". . .I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Revelation 2:5 (KJV) . . What does the "candlestick" speak of/represent if applied to an individual presumptuous Christian?

 

[Cross Reference]

No, it does not mean you possess eternal life now... If you actually had eternal life now there would be no need for the earnest of that which is yet to be received. That's what the word "earnest" means. So please specify which part of that statement you disagree with, so that I may address your objection with the weight of scripture.

Your mis-understanding of the substance of "earnest" given the new born son of God which it signifies as being a Relationship with God by faith receiving into my soul, His own 'DNA' as being the seal of His being a Father to me.. ". . . . by faith "I" stand." 2 Corinthians 1:24 (KJV)

Question: While on Earth and before the cross, did Jesus experience eternal life?

Here's a clue: ". . . whosoever lives [now] and believes in me shall never die." John 11:26 (KJV)

THe "earnest" of the Spirit began on the day of Pentecost. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV) . . The "Promise of the Father"; the "Comforter" Who is standing in for Jesus while He makes intercession for us at the Throne of God in Heaven..

 

[Cross Reference]

The earnest of the spirit is in regard to the spiritual body which Christians will put on at the rapture.

Think Pentecostal Acts 2, Paul is refering to when he wrote {2Cor 5:5 KJV], which was when the "Promise of the Father" was 'inaugurated'; when the Discples "put on" the "earnest of the Spirit"; 'unction to function'; Priestly robe of righteousness, which came upon them.