What is the Gospel?

[glorydaz]

Your argument isn't with me glorydaz. With respect, it is you who is tolerating such a view isn't it? The Gospel that I suggested was another Gospel (worthy of Paul's curse) has God literally hating Esau.

This goes to the heart of the thread.

So then you are only being the devil's advocate? I suspected as much. But, if you are to continue to use the Esau example, I am required to refute it in open court, so to speak.


So, you're speaking of the "other" Gospel by which people should be cursed, correct? That isn't referring to various doctrines, as I understand it, but of any other gospel than the Gospel of Grace, which Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles. The other Gospel being the Gospel of the circumcision (WORKS)....repent, be baptised, obey the commandments.

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;​

Paul speaks of those who would try to come among them and put them back under the bondage of the LAW.

Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?​

That has nothing to do with who the elect are, or whether or not God loved Jacob and hated Esau. I don't think you can put Calvinists under that curse. God's UNtruth....yeah, she belongs there because she preaches the other gospel.

It's strictly referring to the means of salvation....justification by faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. I honestly don't see that Paul was talking about all these other points of doctrine.

 

[patrick jane]

Doesn't such an argument, therefore, also mean that there is no knowledge today?

That which is perfect shall come


[h=1]1 Corinthians 13:10-12King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known[/FONT]

 

[heir]

Doesn't such an argument, therefore, also mean that there is no knowledge today?

That would be no word of knowledge...1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

We've no need of it as that which is perfect has come. 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

[glorydaz]

You have always referred that to adding to the work of Christ, if others said it.

LA

No, you just didn't listen well enough to what I was saying.

 

[heir]

That which is perfect shall come


[h=1]1 Corinthians 13:10-12King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]10 [/B][/FONT]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known[/FONT]

Excellent!

 

[blackbirdking]

...Born dead in sin and already condemned is the biblical description. But again, my friends on the left of me are unwilling to fathom that children die unsaved. ...

Yep, them damned kids. What a good God we serve!(Or rather you serve.)

...Now I do not tell people about the total depravity outside from discussing it amongst believers because no one is ever going to be saved by hearing of total depravity. ...

Truth is truth and all truth points to God. Why not be honest and tell them the whole truth; if it's not the whole truth it's a li...

... That is the difference between a Christian and any other religious belief. It is by being connected to the one who is love that we can become the kind of human beings God created us to become. ...

Yes, that wonderful love which condemns babies; and those who disagree with the 'elect'. Aaaaamen, preach it!

...The gift of God is eternal life. ...

Yep, while my baby is damned!

...There may be objections to accepting the gospel based on the doctrines within the Bible but there still remains no other faith no other belief system that can be compared to it. ...

You got that right; a baby damning loving God. Your words, not mine. sorry.

... all anyone need do is merely look upon Him for salvation. If you at one time in your life did that Sonnet then you are still born again even if you cease to believe. ...

Unless of course Sonnet Dear, you happen to be non-elect; but don't allow that to hinder you, it's all to the glory of God.

...When I believed the gospel I was 5 years old. God reached down from heaven and took ahold of my hand and He has never let go. I’ve wasted years, decades of my life ignoring Christ but once as a child when I cried out to Him He grabbed a hold of me and here we are bro.
Blessings
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmmmmmmmm, hm, hmmmmmm. I gotta think on this.

 

[Sonnet]

Because only one could be the first for a pattern shewing forth the Lord's all longsuffering.

In that scripture Paul doesn't actually mention his God download.

Why do you need an "experience" when faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17 KJV)? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved not feel on the Lord Jesus Christ...

The other Gospel - that of Christ dying for some and God hating Esau to damnation is tolerated amongst Christians. For me, that justifies scepticism.

 

[Sonnet]

That which is perfect shall come


[h=1]1 Corinthians 13:10-12King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]10 [/B][/FONT]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known[/FONT]

I'm not following you PJ.

 

[blackbirdking]

So you agree with Paul:
Galatians 1:
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
?

Yea Sonnet, but your missing something, if a man is cursed for the glory of God...

Well, it's not bad being cursed.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Calvin's interpretation of John 3 isn't a secret.

In all that I provided, this is what you have in response? Why exactly am I to be concerned by what Calvin has to say here as relevant to what I have provided in response?

He is not my regula fidei, nor should he be someone that concerns you and the matter of your eternal destiny.

AMR

 

[Nihilo]

By not choosing you choose.

Sometimes you don't choose because you didn't even know you could.

 

[Sonnet]

So then you are only being the devil's advocate? I suspected as much. But, if you are to continue to use the Esau example, I am required to refute it in open court, so to speak.


So, you're speaking of the "other" Gospel by which people should be cursed, correct? That isn't referring to various doctrines, as I understand it, but of any other gospel than the Gospel of Grace, which Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles. The other Gospel being the Gospel of the circumcision (WORKS)....repent, be baptised, obey the commandments.

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;​

Paul speaks of those who would try to come among them and put them back under the bondage of the LAW.

Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?​

That has nothing to do with who the elect are, or whether or not God loved Jacob and hated Esau. I don't think you can put Calvinists under that curse. God's UNtruth....yeah, she belongs there because she preaches the other gospel.

It's strictly referring to the means of salvation....justification by faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. I honestly don't see that Paul was talking about all these other points of doctrine.

I'm baffled by this - but I think we'd derail if we tried to resolve it. Irrespective of Paul's curse, you are tolerating the view that God hated and damned Esau aren't you? You don't agree with it but, nevertheless, such folk are still chistians in your view?

 

[heir]

In that scripture Paul doesn't actually mention his God download.

Here you go 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV

The other Gospel - that of Christ dying for some and God hating Esau to damnation is tolerated amongst Christians. For me, that justifies scepticism.

You'll look for any excuse to try and justify your unbelief, but you are without excuse. Romans 9 has not to do with the gospel of our salvation as 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Since such sins would follow directly from the inheritance (as you put it: "Post-fall-- able to sin -- not able to not sin"), then I'm not sure why you are suggesting that, therefore, this is our culpable part.

You have not been paying attention and have bought in to the anti-Calvinist "robot!" canard. The decree includes establishment of your ability to choose according to your own greatest inclinations at the moment you so choose. No violence is done to your will by God.

Chapter 3, WCF:
1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11,Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27-28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33)​

See a nice exposition of the same below that you may find edifying:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/shaw_03.html

Rather than assuming what a Calvinist believes and then telling them so, why not try ad fontes? :idunno:

Unlike the majority of anti-Calvinists, others of my ilk actually have spent over a thousand years writing and explaining exactly what we affirm and why from Scripture we do so, such that anyone can avail themselves of the details versus seeking the usual intellectually lazy methods found in discussion sites, blogs, social media, etc. Which is to say, don't just parrot others. While it plays well to the hoi polloi who relish the entertainment and their acedia, the discerning see it for what it really is: an unwillingness to use one's own mind for the glory of God.

Lastly, teeing up the usual Calvin, Luther, Augustine, etc., quotes hoping to cast dispersion is more often an act of desperation, rather than substantive argumentation. The tactic assumes the intended respondents are some slavish sycophants of those that have come before them. The fact that all of these men have been dissected ad nauseam, even internecinely so, should inform the one plying these tactics that they have not stumbled upon some "Gotcha!" that has not been carefully examined. Unfortunately, they just mine a few quotes and present themselves as being informed about weighty matters. Don't take the bait.

AMR

 

[patrick jane]

I'm not following you PJ.

1 Corinthians 13:9 KJV - We have knowledge today but we only see in part right now. I know this doesn't answer your original question of why can't revelations from God happen now like it did with Paul. Paul was a chosen vessel as heir pointed out also with 1 Timothy 1:16 KJV -


Acts 9:15 KJV - [FONT=&quot]But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a [/FONT]chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

I wish we we could all be chosen vessels and receive direct revelation from the risen ascended Lord Jesus Christ, but God is holding out on us for now.

 

[blackbirdking]

Indeed. So?

What is your duty as commanded by God in His revealed will (Scripture) versus attempting to seek out His unrevealed will (Deut. 29:29)?

What is your duty as commanded by Scripture, Gods's revealed will?

This: Believe upon the Lord and be saved.

Do your duty and see where that takes you.

You may just find that the things you claimed to understand beforehand were not as you assumed, thus proving the state of the unbeliever described in Romans 1. This whole discussion is fruitless when taken up between an avowed non-believer and a believer. The former has no ears to hear. Period. I or no one else herein can argue you into the Kingdom.

Obey God. That is your duty. Do it or be left without excuse.

Don't worry Sonnet, if you're elect you'll do it. If not, don't worry because you don't have the ability anyways. Rejoice though, it's all to the glory of God.

Afterwards, in your walk of faith some things will become more clear depending upon how you manage your walk of faith in the feeding of your faith and starving of your doubts by not neglecting daily Scripture study, rejoicing in hope, being patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer (Romans 12:12), fellowship with other believers, keeping good stewardship of the secular and spiritual gifts God has given you—including how and where your time is being spent—and with regular assembly with others to worship God, receive instruction, access the ordinary means of grace, and being subject to discipline.

So, what prevents you at this moment in calling upon the name of the Lord?

It's the T in TULIP Sonnet, sorry. Just be happy Sonnet, some day you might experience the I.

Nothing. You know this. You simply continue to rationalize and navel gaze.
AMR

Sorry again Sonnet, you're not the only one that rationalizes.

 

[Nihilo]

Sonnet, settle in with that He is risen. These questions answer themselves once you choose to believe 666 (verses from Mt28 Mk16 Lk24).

 

[heir]

You wouldn't know the heavens declare the glory of God except it is written:

Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

As to the topic of this thread, I ask you, "What is the gospel" of your salvation?

Well?

 

[glorydaz]

Esau never repented, and he inherited nothing of Gods promises--

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

LA

That is talking about immediately after he was tricked out of the blessing, and the why of it. What do you think "inherited the blessing has to do with"? God did not hate Esau, He simply allowed Jacob to cheat him out of his inheritance because the promise was to come through Jacob.

Jacob and Esau reconciled, and were still close enough to bury their father years later.

Genesis 35:28-29
28 And the days of Isaac were an hundred and fourscore years. 29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.​

I know....try reading more of the story instead of just the aftermath of the stolen birthright.

Gen. 33:4 And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept. 5 And he lifted up his eyes, and saw the women and the children; and said, Who are those with thee? And he said, The children which God hath graciously given thy servant.​

 

[Sonnet]

In all that I provided, this is what you have in response? Why exactly am I to be concerned by what Calvin has to say here as relevant to what I have provided in response?

He is not my regula fidei, nor should he be someone that concerns you and the matter of your eternal destiny.

AMR

I used 'Calvin' so as to avoid possible offence, that's all.

Since I am viewed as totally depraved then it would seem odd of me (and possibly delusional) to express a 'moral' objection to believing in a God that you describe. Nevertheless, I consider the actuality of such a Gospel as repugnant.