What is the express image of God?

[daqq]

LOL Stan isn't falling for your foolishness, Keypurr. Give it up.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.​

Your quote from Rev. 19:13 also does not agree with what the man Yeshua says concerning himself and who will be the Judge in the Last Day. Here it is again:

Originally Posted by daqq
What about these clear emphatic statements from Yeshua himself?
Do you honor them by incorporating them into your doctrine?

John 14:24
24. He that loves me not keeps not my words: and the Logos which you hear is not of me, but-contrariwise, [it is] of the Sender of me, the Father.

John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but-contrariwise, the judgment of all He has given to the Son:

John 8:15
15. You judge according to the flesh: I judge no one.

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge.

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but-contrariwise that the world be saved.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos which I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.

1) The Father judges no one.
2) The man Yeshua judges no one.
3) The Father has given all judgment to the Son.
4) The man Yeshua seeks not his own glory: there is one Seeker and Judge.
5) The Logos which the man Yeshua spoke is the Seeker and Judge.
6) The Logos is the Son according to the Testimony of Yeshua.
7) Heaven and earth shall pass but the words of Yeshua will not pass away.

This one is particularly troubling when you attempt to apply it as you have:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but-contrariwise that the world be saved.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos which I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.

The man Yeshua clearly states that it will not be himself who will be the Judge in the Last Day but rather the LOGOS which he has spoken, (which the Father gave him from above).

 

[Ben Masada]

You made the assertion. I have asked you to provide the proof. If you can't, :carryon:

John 1:1-5 and 14, the writer is comparing Jesus with God Himself in the creation of the world. This could have never come from the pen of a Jew but of a Christian Hellenist former disciple of Paul's. There!

 

[StanJ]

Your quote from Rev. 19:3 also does not agree with what the man Yeshua says concerning himself and who will be the Judge in the Last Day. Here it is again:
This one is particularly troubling when you attempt to apply it as you have:
John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but-contrariwise that the world be saved.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos which I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.
The man Yeshua clearly states that it will not be himself who will be the Judge in the Last Day but rather the LOGOS which he has spoken, (which the Father gave him from above).

Well as Jesus does NOT contradict Himself, we can only conclude that YOU do not understand what He does say. Maybe it's because you keep calling Him Joshua when His name is Jesus?

Jesus IS the LOGOS/WORD.

Seems you really have a problem understanding English AND Greek?
What language do you understand? I'll try and use it to show you.

 

[Ben Masada]

Sure

http://www.lazaruscomeforth.com/lazarus-the-beloved-disciple/

I meant in the NT and not plagiarizing from another Christian.

 

[StanJ]

John 1:1-5 and 14, the writer is comparing Jesus with God Himself in the creation of the world. This could have never come from the pen of a Jew but of a Christian Hellenist former disciple of Paul's. There!

Of course it could come from a Jew. ALL the apostles but one, were Jews. They believed what Jesus taught and it was ALSO revealed to them by God the Father as Jesus said in Matt 16:17 (NIV)

 

[StanJ]

I meant in the NT and not plagiarizing from another Christian.

As you don't seem to study the NT and I have no compunction to answer something that already has been answered successfully to my satisfaction. You can accept it or not. BR posted a different link with pretty much the same conclusions.

 

[Bright Raven]

John 1:1-5 and 14, the writer is comparing Jesus with God Himself in the creation of the world. This could have never come from the pen of a Jew but of a Christian Hellenist former disciple of Paul's. There!

Why? Did John not write 1 John;

1 John 1:1-3 Modern English Version (MEV)

The Word of Life

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have touched, concerning the Word of life—

2 the life was revealed, and we have seen it and testify to it, and announce to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was revealed to us—

3 we declare to you that which we have seen and heard, that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Was this written John the Apostle or a Greek Hellenist?

 

[Ben Masada]

Of course it could come from a Jew. ALL the apostles but one, were Jews. They believed what Jesus taught and it was ALSO revealed to them by God the Father as Jesus said in Matt 16:17 (NIV)

You are not serious!

 

[StanJ]

You are not serious!

As serious as a heart attack. (which I had in 2004)

 

[Ben Masada]

As serious as a heart attack. (which I had in 2004)

Really! So, be sure not to die trying to have one.

 

[daqq]

John 1:1-5 and 14, the writer is comparing Jesus with God Himself in the creation of the world. This could have never come from the pen of a Jew but of a Christian Hellenist former disciple of Paul's. There!

That would be Elohim, (the Son) yes, but not YHWH Elohim, (the Father). When you say "God Himself" I assume you mean it the same way everyone else here seems to mean it but the Brit Chadashah writers do not always mean it that way. In fact there are clearly places in TaNaK where Elohim very likely means Angels, (see Hebrews 2:7 quoting Psalm 8:5 for the one example which still remains) and in places where it appears with the definite article this is even more so probably the case. Problem is that the "Jewishness" of today is not what it was in those days, (and especially not the same as it was in Damaseq-Qumran) so perhaps that might play a greater factor than you realize in why you cannot imagine a Jew writing John 1:1-5. Also hope you do not find my usage of the Tetragrammaton offensive but I do not agree with such a ban and they do not accept my kind anyways.

 

[StanJ]

Really! So, be sure not to die trying to have one.

No one TRIES Ben...it happens. Anyway on with the issue.

 

[StanJ]

In fact there are clearly places in TaNaK where Elohim very likely means Angels, (see Hebrews 2:7 quoting Psalm 8:5)

I love it...FACT and VERY LIKELY in the same sentence.
BTW, Hebrews is NOT part of the TaNaKh. Real Jews know that.

 

[daqq]

I love it...FACT and VERY LIKELY in the same sentence.
BTW, Hebrews is NOT part of the TaNaKh. Real Jews know that.

See how you are? Full of hatred. You will do anything you can to paint someone else in the worst possible light just because he or she does not agree with your mystery dogma. Sorry thing is you jump the gun almost every time and speak before you actually understand what was even said; either that or you simply have no reading comprehension whatsoever. Did you not see that when I referenced Hebrews I also referenced the passage from the Psalm which it quotes? Do you not know that Psalms is part of the Tanach? You really are making yourself look like a buffoon simply because you write and post before you comprehend what was actually said. Psalms is most definitely in the Tanach the last time I checked and it says exactly what I said that it says in the passage that I quoted:

Psalm 8:5 Transliterated Unaccented
5. (8:6 in Heb.) Watchacrehuwm`aT me- 'Elohiym wkabowd w-hadar t`aTrehuw.

Psalms 8:5 ASV
5. For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor.

Psalms 8:5 YLT
5. And causest him to lack a little of Godhead, And with honour and majesty compassest him.

Psalms 8:5 KJV
5. For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Which one is Elohim in this context, O king? :crackup:

Is the son of man a little lower than the angels?
Does the son of man lack a little of Godhead?
Is the son of man a little lower than God?

The author of Hebrews probably quotes from the Septuagint, as they all do, and what do you suppose we will find in the Septuagint if we look at this passage in Psalms? I would just tell you but you obviously will not believe anything I say; even before you have heard it or even before you actually understand what was said to begin with, so what is the use? Go look for yourself if you truly care about finding and knowing truth; and if you do then come back and let us all know what it says. However, whether or not the author of Hebrews is quoting the Septuagint, either way he employs aggelos-angelous for Elohim:

Hebrews 2:7 KJV
7. Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; [GSN#0032] thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

In this instance the author of Hebrews is quoting from Psalm 8:5, which is indeed from the Tanach, and the word Elohim is clearly understood to mean ANGELS because that is likewise the way in which it was understood by those who rendered the Hebrew Scriptures into the Greek Septuagint before the advent of Messiah. Know also that I really do not mind your continued ad-hominem em-n-em attacks because as you do so you likewise keep opening more doors for the scripture to show the error in your mystery dogma religion.

 

[keypurr]

"Could be" truths are what those without THE TRUTH put forth. It's a dangerous game you play, Keypurr.

You have rejected truth glorydaz.

You closed your eyes to it if favor of the traditional church doctrines. I worry not for my Lord has given me a gift to share.

You will never understand my words friend for to do so means to see things that go against what you have been taught in Sunday school.

 

[keypurr]

You say this to EVERYONE who gives you scripture that refutes your false teaching keypurr. Why is it you CAN'T reciprocate in kind WITH properly exegeted scriptures?

I am still waiting for scripture to prove me wrong. Your not equipped to do so Stan. I spent many years thinking as you do, then my eyes were opened.

 

[Bright Raven]

I am still waiting for scripture to prove me wrong. Your not equipped to do so Stan. I spent many years thinking as you do, then my eyes were opened.

You have had that. For years, you have been shown your error by numerous people. You are wrong in the wild theory that you expect people to accept.

 

[keypurr]

See how you are? Full of hatred. You will do anything you can to paint someone else in the worst possible light just because he or she does not agree with your mystery dogma. Sorry thing is you jump the gun almost every time and speak before you actually understand what was even said; either that or you simply have no reading comprehension whatsoever. Did you not see that when I referenced Hebrews I also referenced the passage from the Psalm which it quotes? Do you not know that Psalms is part of the Tanach? You really are making yourself look like a buffoon simply because you write and post before you comprehend what was actually said. Psalms is most definitely in the Tanach the last time I checked and it says exactly what I said that it says in the passage that I quoted:

Psalm 8:5 Transliterated Unaccented
5. (8:6 in Heb.) Watchacrehuwm`aT me- 'Elohiym wkabowd w-hadar t`aTrehuw.

Psalms 8:5 ASV
5. For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor.

Psalms 8:5 YLT
5. And causest him to lack a little of Godhead, And with honour and majesty compassest him.

Psalms 8:5 KJV
5. For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Which one is Elohim in this context, O king? :crackup:

Is the son of man a little lower than the angels?
Does the son of man lack a little of Godhead?
Is the son of man a little lower than God?

The author of Hebrews probably quotes from the Septuagint, as they all do, and what do you suppose we will find in the Septuagint if we look at this passage in Psalms? I would just tell you but you obviously will not believe anything I say; even before you have heard it or even before you actually understand what was said to begin with, so what is the use? Go look for yourself if you truly care about finding and knowing truth; and if you do then come back and let us all know what it says. However, whether or not the author of Hebrews is quoting the Septuagint, either way he employs aggelos-angelous for Elohim:

Hebrews 2:7 KJV
7. Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; [GSN#0032] thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

In this instance the author of Hebrews is quoting from Psalm 8:5, which is indeed from the Tanach, and the word Elohim is clearly understood to mean ANGELS because that is likewise the way in which it was understood by those who rendered the Hebrew Scriptures into the Greek Septuagint before the advent of Messiah. Know also that I really do not mind your continued ad-hominem em-n-em attacks because as you do so you likewise keep opening more doors for the scripture to show the error in your mystery dogma religion.

Sad part is he does not see the evil he projects.

 

[StanJ]

I am still waiting for scripture to prove me wrong. Your not equipped to do so Stan. I spent many years thinking as you do, then my eyes were opened.

keypurr, deceived people can NOT receive proper instruction nor scriptures, and despite my efforts to give you & daqq scripture, all you have done is deny their appropriateness with this kind of condescending rhetoric. I doubt very much you've spent ANY time actually THINKING, you've just swallowed Arianism hook, line and sinker.

 

[StanJ]

Sad part is he does not see the evil he projects.

Not surprising you see the Word of God as evil. After all, look who the father of lies is. John 8:44 (NIV)