What is the express image of God?

[Anto9us]

"I see Christ the spirit, and Jesus the flesh as two, yet combined at his baptism."

No.

Unless you see them as combined at his INCARNATION

and fore-ordained to be combined from the foundation of the world

-- you are WAY OUTSIDE of Christian Orthodoxy, keypurr...

"This day have I begotten thee" must be compared to OTHER STATEMENTS

like "Before Abraham was - I am"

"I beheld Satan fall like lightning from heaven"

"In the beginning was the Word"

"Father - glorify me now with the glory we had together before the world was"

and etc etc

and other



slam-dunks for Trinitarianism




and the Pre-xistence of Christ


as the Eternally-Begotten Son of the Father



(Sorry, RevT, but Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day - he saw it - and was glad.)

 

[Anto9us]

"there were "waters" that the Lord apparently used to form the earth."


Don Pardo - original host of Jeapordy voice:




"No.

Sorry."




Nowhere was it said that God "used the waters to form the earth"

a close reading says the "waters were separated from above the firmament and below the firmament"

those waters BELOW were "gathered into one place"

then the DRY LAND appeared --

no where does it say that the earth was "formed from the waters"

it never said that

 

[Jacob]

I spread truth friend. It is your church forefathers who spread the lies that you hold on to. The truth a can hurt.

Do you have anything against the church as defined in the scriptures?

We are talking about reading the Bible here, not our own man-made ideas.

 

[keypurr]

Do you have anything against the church as defined in the scriptures?

We are talking about reading the Bible here, not our own man-made ideas.

Yes I do, they only teach half the truth and they distort that.

They teach the Trinity which is false, they do not teach the commandments as they are in scripture.

.

 

[keypurr]

"I see Christ the spirit, and Jesus the flesh as two, yet combined at his baptism."

No.

Unless you see them as combined at his INCARNATION

and fore-ordained to be combined from the foundation of the world

-- you are WAY OUTSIDE of Christian Orthodoxy, keypurr...

"This day have I begotten thee" must be compared to OTHER STATEMENTS

like "Before Abraham was - I am"

"I beheld Satan fall like lightning from heaven"

"In the beginning was the Word"

"Father - glorify me now with the glory we had together before the world was"

and etc etc

and other



slam-dunks for Trinitarianism




and the Pre-xistence of Christ


as the Eternally-Begotten Son of the Father



(Sorry, RevT, but Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day - he saw it - and was glad.)

The last thing I wish to be in is Christian Orthodoxy.

You have no understanding of what it says in the verses you quote.

Your Trinity breaks the Commandments of the only true God.

Christ pre existed but Jesus did not.

We are miles apart friend.

 

[keypurr]

"there were "waters" that the Lord apparently used to form the earth."


Don Pardo - original host of Jeapordy voice:




"No.

Sorry."




Nowhere was it said that God "used the waters to form the earth"

a close reading says the "waters were separated from above the firmament and below the firmament"

those waters BELOW were "gathered into one place"

then the DRY LAND appeared --

no where does it say that the earth was "formed from the waters"

it never said that

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

[Ardima]

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Who or What is this EXPRESS image of God?

1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.
2. This is God's firstborn of every creature, a creation.
3. This spirit has deity for it has the fullness of the father.
4. This spirit was with God before the creation, creation was done through this spirit.
5. This spirit is a form of God

I use the term Christ spirit to discribe this image.

What do YOU think it is?

The express image of God is Jesus Christ. It is made pretty clear when Jesus claims that he is the Way (the Body of God), the Truth (The Soul of God), and the Life (the Spirit of God) (John 14:6).

We are all image bearers of God; that is, we all have a body, spirit, and soul (Genesis 2:7); however, Jesus is the express image of God.

Our body is the way and mediator between our soul, the physical world, and other human beings. Is Jesus not the way and mediator between us and the Father?

Our spirit gives us life and is found in the blood(Leviticus 17:10), which cleanses and purifies our bodies from disease and infection. Does not the Holy Spirit give life, cleans, and purify us?

Our Soul is the truth of who we are and directs (controls) our body and spirit to the extent of what we wish others to know about us. Is the Father not the Truth of God who controls and directs the Son and the Spirit?

The Trinity is not made of three separate but co-equal persons of the Godhead. The Trinity is three aspects that make up the single Image of the Eternal God. We have a limited control over the three aspects that make up our being, but God is sovereign and has the ability to completely operate each aspect of His being independently.

I can go even further into the parallels between each aspect of our being and that of God's, such as how Jesus seemed to have his own will and was not omniscient; however, I will only do so if someone is interested in what I am saying.

 

[StanJ]

Stan welcome to the conversation.

Phil 2 says that Christ was a form of God, not God. I see him as a created form of God for he is the express image of the Father who is the only true God. John 17:3. You will have a hard time proving in scripture that Jesus Christ is God. He is the son of God, not God. All his power came from his God.

No trouble at all to prove in scripture that Jesus IS God.

Phil 2:6 (NIV) says He existed in the form of God, not a form of God.
Heb 3:1 (NIV) states he is the EXACT representation of His essence/being.
Col 1:15 (NIV) says he IS the image of God.
Col 1:19 (NIV) says the FULLNESS of God dwells in Jesus.
Col 2:9 (NIV) says the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form.

and yes John 17:3 say he is God and our Christ.

You see, no problem at all.

I have a bunch more if you would like?

 

[keypurr]

What is the express image of God?

No trouble at all to prove in scripture that Jesus IS God.

Phil 2:6 (NIV) says He existed in the form of God, not a form of God.
Heb 3:1 (NIV) states he is the EXACT representation of His essence/being.
Col 1:15 (NIV) says he IS the image of God.
Col 1:19 (NIV) says the FULLNESS of God dwells in Jesus.
Col 2:9 (NIV) says the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form.

and yes John 17:3 say he is God and our Christ.

You see, no problem at all.

I have a bunch more if you would like?

Yes there is, all these verses relate to the express image of the father, a spirit, that was in Jesus, not Jesus himself.

Jesus is/was not God, but the spirit in him was a FORM of God.

Discard tradition to see truth.

 

[keypurr]

The express image of God is Jesus Christ. It is made pretty clear when Jesus claims that he is the Way (the Body of God), the Truth (The Soul of God), and the Life (the Spirit of God) (John 14:6).



We are all image bearers of God; that is, we all have a body, spirit, and soul (Genesis 2:7); however, Jesus is the express image of God.



Our body is the way and mediator between our soul, the physical world, and other human beings. Is Jesus not the way and mediator between us and the Father?



Our spirit gives us life and is found in the blood(Leviticus 17:10), which cleanses and purifies our bodies from disease and infection. Does not the Holy Spirit give life, cleans, and purify us?



Our Soul is the truth of who we are and directs (controls) our body and spirit to the extent of what we wish others to know about us. Is the Father not the Truth of God who controls and directs the Son and the Spirit?



The Trinity is not made of three separate but co-equal persons of the Godhead. The Trinity is three aspects that make up the single Image of the Eternal God. We have a limited control over the three aspects that make up our being, but God is sovereign and has the ability to completely operate each aspect of His being independently.



I can go even further into the parallels between each aspect of our being and that of God's, such as how Jesus seemed to have his own will and was not omniscient; however, I will only do so if someone is interested in what I am saying.

Jesus was a man, not a spirit. The express image of God is a spirit. That discards your first line.

Christ, not Jesus, is an exact copy of the Father and was given the fullness of the Father. Being the express image, he is a created spirit. The spiritual son of the most high God. Christ is a form of God. He took the form of man by dwelling in the body prepared for him in Heb 10:5. There was Christ many years before there was Jesus. Its a very long study to undertake to see this. The Trinity does not exist, it is a church fable.

There is only one express image of the Father, this is the logos of John 1, this is the spirit that became flesh. To understand Jesus Christ you need to see the Christ on him. The one he received at his anointing. Acts 10:38, that is when Jesus received his power, the power of Christ, that is when God declared that this was his son.

The will of Jesus Christ was to do the will of his Father, Christ descended from heaven, not Jesus. Christ spoke through Jesus to manifest God to mankind.

To see truth you will need more than the NIV translation friend.

 

[StanJ]

Yes there is, all these verses relate to the express image of the father, a spirit, that was in Jesus, not Jesus himself.
Jesus is/was not God, but the spirit in him was a FORM of God.
Discard tradition to see truth.

Actually, it connotes EXACT, and means just that. The Greek word hypostasis tells us Jesus' very nature was the WORD/GOD incarnate.

It's God's Word, NOT tradition that shows the truth which you seem to ignore or not be able to see.

Here's some more from scripture that shows who Jesus IS.

Jesus said: I and the Father are one.
Jesus said: If you've seen me you've seen the Father.
Jesus said: If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
Jesus said: You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.
Jesus said: If you do not believe that I am He, you will indeed die in your sins.
Jesus said: You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
Jesus said: Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Peter 1:11
and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2 Peter 3:2
I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
Col 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:9-10
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.
Titus 1:3
and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
Titus 1:4
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Titus 2:10
and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.
Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
Titus 3:6
whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior
Is 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Is 43:11-12
I, yes I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. I’ve revealed and saved and proclaimed, when there as no foreign god among you — and you are my witnesses,” declares the LORD.

 

[keypurr]

The express image of God is Jesus Christ. It is made pretty clear when Jesus claims that he is the Way (the Body of God), the Truth (The Soul of God), and the Life (the Spirit of God) (John 14:6).

We are all image bearers of God; that is, we all have a body, spirit, and soul (Genesis 2:7); however, Jesus is the express image of God.

Our body is the way and mediator between our soul, the physical world, and other human beings. Is Jesus not the way and mediator between us and the Father?

Our spirit gives us life and is found in the blood(Leviticus 17:10), which cleanses and purifies our bodies from disease and infection. Does not the Holy Spirit give life, cleans, and purify us?

Our Soul is the truth of who we are and directs (controls) our body and spirit to the extent of what we wish others to know about us. Is the Father not the Truth of God who controls and directs the Son and the Spirit?

The Trinity is not made of three separate but co-equal persons of the Godhead. The Trinity is three aspects that make up the single Image of the Eternal God. We have a limited control over the three aspects that make up our being, but God is sovereign and has the ability to completely operate each aspect of His being independently.

I can go even further into the parallels between each aspect of our being and that of God's, such as how Jesus seemed to have his own will and was not omniscient; however, I will only do so if someone is interested in what I am saying.

Actually, it connotes EXACT, and means just that. The Greek word hypostasis tells us Jesus' very nature was the WORD/GOD incarnate.

It's God's Word, NOT tradition that shows the truth which you seem to ignore or not be able to see.

Here's some more from scripture that shows who Jesus IS.

Jesus said: I and the Father are one.
Jesus said: If you've seen me you've seen the Father.
Jesus said: If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
Jesus said: You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.
Jesus said: If you do not believe that I am He, you will indeed die in your sins.
Jesus said: You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
Jesus said: Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Peter 1:11
and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2 Peter 3:2
I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
Col 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:9-10
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.
Titus 1:3
and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
Titus 1:4
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Titus 2:10
and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.
Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
Titus 3:6
whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior
Is 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Is 43:11-12
I, yes I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. I’ve revealed and saved and proclaimed, when there as no foreign god among you — and you are my witnesses,” declares the LORD.

The express image of the spirit God would be a spirit. What must I do to get you to see that. Jesus was a man, not a spirit. However he had been given the express image of God spirit at his baptism. That is when he received Christ who came with the fullness of the Father.

Just about every verse you listed has been gone over in the past, however none say Jesus is God. And the son is not the father or the Father is not the son. Jesus Christ displayed the truth about his God to us. The Christ in him is the true son that was sent. Jesus was born as the body prepared for this Christ spirit.

As the Apostle Paul says, we have one God, the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. The express image is a creation, the firstborn of all creatures. He is a created form of God. That is important to understand. He took the form of man, Jesus Christ. His God has made him Lord of all creation. Only the Father is higher than Christ.

Stan, this is a great subject to study. Five years ago you and I would have agreed for I thought as you do.

 

[Bright Raven]

The express image of the spirit God would be a spirit. What must I do to get you to see that. Jesus was a man, not a spirit. However he had been given the express image of God spirit at his baptism. That is when he received Christ who came with the fullness of the Father.

Just about every verse you listed has been gone over in the past, however none say Jesus is God. And the son is not the father or the Father is not the son. Jesus Christ displayed the truth about his God to us. The Christ in him is the true son that was sent. Jesus was born as the body prepared for this Christ spirit.

As the Apostle Paul says, we have one God, the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. The express image is a creation, the firstborn of all creatures. He is a created form of God. That is important to understand. He took the form of man, Jesus Christ. His God has made him Lord of all creation. Only the Father is higher than Christ.

Stan, this is a great subject to study. Five years ago you and I would have agreed for I thought as you do.

Christ means anointed one. He was anointed at the time of his birth.
Luke 2:11

 

[keypurr]

Christ means anointed one. He was anointed at the time of his birth.
Luke 2:11

Then why did he need to grow in wisdom?

He was given the express image spirit at his baptism. That spirit came with power

Luke 2:11 speaks of him being the savior, as I have trying to show you, Luke was written 40 years after the fact. Jesus was born to be the Savior and Lord, but he was not born savior and Lord. And he was not born with the express image in him, that came later friend.

 

[Bright Raven]

Then why did he need to grow in wisdom?

He was given the express image spirit at his baptism. That spirit came with power

Luke 2:11 speaks of him being the savior, as I have trying to show you, Luke was written 40 years after the fact. Jesus was born to be the Savior and Lord, but he was not born savior and Lord. And he was not born with the express image in him, that came later friend.

And why would a man not grow in wisdom. You do remember that He is God and man right?

 

[keypurr]

And why would a man not grow in wisdom. You do remember that He is God and man right?

That's the point, God does not need to grow in wisdom.

Proof that he was not God. But the Christ in him is a created form of God. Jesus was just a sinless flesh son of God. He is not a god/man. Doctrines like that come from the fools in the early church.

 

[Bright Raven]

That's the point, God does not need to grow in wisdom.

Proof that he was not God. But the Christ in him is a created form of God. Jesus was just a sinless flesh son of God. He is not a god/man. Doctrines like that come from the fools in the early church.

Guess that you need to study more and accept Jesus for who he is, the God/man. oly:

 

[StanJ]

The express image of the spirit God would be a spirit. What must I do to get you to see that. Jesus was a man, not a spirit. However he had been given the express image of God spirit at his baptism. That is when he received Christ who came with the fullness of the Father.

Just about every verse you listed has been gone over in the past, however none say Jesus is God. And the son is not the father or the Father is not the son. Jesus Christ displayed the truth about his God to us. The Christ in him is the true son that was sent. Jesus was born as the body prepared for this Christ spirit.

As the Apostle Paul says, we have one God, the father, and one Lord Jesus Christ. The express image is a creation, the firstborn of all creatures. He is a created form of God. That is important to understand. He took the form of man, Jesus Christ. His God has made him Lord of all creation. Only the Father is higher than Christ.

Stan, this is a great subject to study. Five years ago you and I would have agreed for I thought as you do.

I know Jesus was a man physically keypurr, but you being stuck on the word 'express' in it's 17th century connotation, doesn't really help your case much.
Proper hermeneutical exegesis requires that you don't take a single word from scripture and make your stand on it.
Heb 1:1-4 and John 1:1-18 gives us more than enough to see that Jesus was and IS God incarnate. They explain clearly that God was resident IN Jesus while maintaining His heavenly status as Father AND sending the Holy Spirit to baptize the believers on the day of Pentecost. That triune nature is distinct and the same today as from the beginning of creation.
John 1:18 states very clearly that Jesus was Himself God, so ANY efforts to dismiss that with equivocal language fails.
What Paul states in Colossians and Titus, also clearly shows Jesus is God.

Jesus was born indeed, NOT created, and He was born as God incarnate.
As Isaiah 43:11-12 clearly shows, God is our ONLY savior so the fact that the NT declares Jesus as our savior, can only mean Jesus is God.

Two years ago we didn't agree on this subject so please don't assume that I would find a different perspective the more I study. I can assure you I have been studying God's word for most of the 44 years I have been saved, and have NEVER changed my mind about WHO my savior is.
He is Jesus, my God & Savior. Just as the scriptures clearly depict.

 

[keypurr]

I know Jesus was a man physically keypurr, but you being stuck on the word 'express' in it's 17th century connotation, doesn't really help your case much.
Proper hermeneutical exegesis requires that you don't take a single word from scripture and make your stand on it.

You do not wish to accept the fact that God made his exact image. Your not seeing how important that is.

Heb 1:1-4 and John 1:1-18 gives us more than enough to see that Jesus was and IS God incarnate. They explain clearly that God was resident IN Jesus while maintaining His heavenly status as Father AND sending the Holy Spirit to baptize the believers on the day of Pentecost. That triune nature is distinct and the same today as from the beginning of creation.

I do not see that in the Bible Stan,

John 1:18 states very clearly that Jesus was Himself God, so ANY efforts to dismiss that with equivocal language fails.
What Paul states in Colossians and Titus, also clearly shows Jesus is God.

Nope, I do not see that also.

Jesus was born indeed, NOT created, and He was born as God incarnate.

Everything BORN is a creation. Jesus is a creature like we are.

As Isaiah 43:11-12 clearly shows, God is our ONLY savior so the fact that the NT declares Jesus as our savior, can only mean Jesus is God.

The LORD in this verse is not Jesus.

Two years ago we didn't agree on this subject so please don't assume that I would find a different perspective the more I study. I can assure you I have been studying God's word for most of the 44 years I have been saved, and have NEVER changed my mind about WHO my savior is.
He is Jesus, my God & Savior. Just as the scriptures clearly depict.

My words were FIVE years ago I thought like you.

I have the same God that Jesus has.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[keypurr]

Stan, your God has a God, mine does not