What is the express image of God?

[Read]

I know my friend that you are not demanding that I agree. But I am still hung up on the power that this image had to create for or with the Father. I disagree with most that he was NOT the express image the world was created. Colossians 1 tell us that this image was the first creation. Hebrews 1:10 God calls him a God and tells us that he created all. This is why I believe he was the express image of God before the world was. If I could see proof to dispute this it would open the door to my mind more.

Read, I enjoy your thoughts, we must see all apects of God's word. Most will tell you that I have gone off the deep end. But I believe that for some reason God brought this to my attention. He will not allow me to let go of it. For years I have seen these verses, but never in this way. We need to study Colossians 1 and Hebrews 1 with the words of Jesus to come up with truth. Pray for truth with me friend and lets explore it deeper.

Thanks for your input, Bob

Keypurr,

You write: "Pray for truth with me friend and lets explore it deeper."

I would like to concentrate on only the Colossians passage to begin with but before I do, I would like to remind you what Oatmeal wrote in #268 as this may not be as deep as you imagine. Oatmeal said:

"Remember, truth is simple. The son is the express image!"

Keypurr, the question of your thread "What is the express image of God?" is the wrong question, and is actually an impossible conundrum. Your question is an unanswerable riddle similar to the question "Why is a mouse when it runs?" Keypurr, can you answer my question about the mouse? Of course you can't because its grammatically incorrect, which is exactly the same reason the question you have formed about "the express image of God" is an impossible riddle.

Proverbs 26:27 says: "Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him." You my friend have dug a deep pit and have fallen in. Before we can even discuss Colossians, I must get you out of the hole you have fallen into. I could give you a grammar lesson about the difference between pronouns and personal pronouns (which is what this is all about), but a simple question may enable you to see your error.


Now Keypurr if I was to ask you "Who is the President of the United States?" you would have no trouble answering. But how about if I asked you: "What is the President of the United States?"

Your question "What is the express image of God?" contains the same gamammatical error as my question "What is the President of the United States?" You are trying to answer a spiritual question, which is simple enough. However your error in grammar is making it impossible for you. In order that you may come to see your grammatical error I have formed my "natural" question containing the same grammatical mistake, then after you answer that, we may possibly (by God's grace) proceed to that which is "spiritual."

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


Go on Keypurr, try and answer (if you can) my natural question: "What is the President of the United States?"


Read!

 

[Ps82]

Keypurr... people who want to deny that anyone saw the presence of God ... like to fiddle with the definition of the word IMAGE. They like to say that it is something that is not seen.

Well, that is wrong. If you told me that you had an image of yourself, then I would expect you to, at least, have a photograph you could show me. IOW, I would expect to be able to SEE a picture of your presence.

 

[keypurr]

Only the human body and human nature of Jesus Christ was created.
The person/mind within that tabernacle is uncreated.

I think that is what we are debating. If Christ is the express image of God he would be a created spirit. For God is a spirit and an image is a creation.

If the Christ spirit controlled the mind of Jesus, that would like God in Jesus. I believe that Christ spoke though Jesus. That wouls be the same as God speaking through Jesus. God did many wonders through Jesus how important is it to know how it did it?

Peace Steko

 

[keypurr]

Keypurr,

You write: "Pray for truth with me friend and lets explore it deeper."

I would like to concentrate on only the Colossians passage to begin with but before I do, I would like to remind you what Oatmeal wrote in #268 as this may not be as deep as you imagine. Oatmeal said:

"Remember, truth is simple. The son is the express image!"

Keypurr, the question of your thread "What is the express image of God?" is the wrong question, and is actually an impossible conundrum. Your question is an unanswerable riddle similar to the question "Why is a mouse when it runs?" Keypurr, can you answer my question about the mouse? Of course you can't because its grammatically incorrect, which is exactly the same reason the question you have formed about "the express image of God" is an impossible riddle.

Proverbs 26:27 says: "Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him." You my friend have dug a deep pit and have fallen in. Before we can even discuss Colossians, I must get you out of the hole you have fallen into. I could give you a grammar lesson about the difference between pronouns and personal pronouns (which is what this is all about), but a simple question may enable you to see your error.


Now Keypurr if I was to ask you "Who is the President of the United States?" you would have no trouble answering. But how about if I asked you: "What is the President of the United States?"

Your question "What is the express image of God?" contains the same gamammatical error as my question "What is the President of the United States?" You are trying to answer a spiritual question, which is simple enough. However your error in grammar is making it impossible for you. In order that you may come to see your grammatical error I have formed my "natural" question containing the same grammatical mistake, then after you answer that, we may possibly (by God's grace) proceed to that which is "spiritual."

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


Go on Keypurr, try and answer (if you can) my natural question: "What is the President of the United States?"


Read!

Hi Read, I think I asked a good question. You see the word image an confine it to a likeness, reflection. I see it as a being, a spirit. God is a spirit so his express image is also a spirit. Not just a reflection but a seperated created being.

I see it as God creating another god like creature. I see that creature as Christ the firstborn of all creatures. I see God using this spirit to create everything else. I see all that in Colossians 1:15.

Hebrews just reinforces these thoughts, the same with Philippians 2. This image is not just a reflection, it is a complete copy of the Father with all his fullness. He must have had this fullness before he created the worlds. Jesus said that all power in heaven and earth was given to him by his God (father).

Maybe we should ask "Who really is the son of God?" he is much more than a human, he says he came from God, so the Son must include the spirit that was in him also. Jesus the Christ hense, Jesus Christ one son but two parts. One human, one godlike. That would make Jesus a form of God, the son of God in the flesh with the spirit of his Christ.

As far as your question, the President of the United States is the elected leader of the greatest country on earth.

Peace Read

 

[keypurr]

Keypurr... people who want to deny that anyone saw the presence of God ... like to fiddle with the definition of the word IMAGE. They like to say that it is something that is not seen.

Well, that is wrong. If you told me that you had an image of yourself, then I would expect you to, at least, have a photograph you could show me. IOW, I would expect to be able to SEE a picture of your presence.

Friend, God is a spirit. For many years you have saying that he is invisiable, you are correct, like the wind, you cannot see him, you see the effects of him. The express image of the Father is also invisiable. It also is spirit. God can make himself to be any thing he wants to be, so can his image. I think only Christ has truly seen his Father as he really is. Only Christ is pure enough to see him.

I can give you a photo of me, but not my mind. The express image is a copy of God in all ways. His being, his mind, his wisdom and his thoughts, his person. It has power and understanding. Then one day God sent this spirit to this world to teach us all about him. The one person who could be trusted with this power was his sinless son of Mary.

 

[Bright Raven]

Friend, God is a spirit. For many years you have saying that he is invisiable, you are correct, like the wind, you cannot see him, you see the effects of him. The express image of the Father is also invisiable. It also is spirit. God can make himself to be any thing he wants to be, so can his image. I think only Christ has truly seen his Father as he really is. Only Christ is pure enough to see him.

I can give you a photo of me, but not my mind. The express image is a copy of God in all ways. His being, his mind, his wisdom and his thoughts, his person. It has power and understanding. Then one day God sent this spirit to this world to teach us all about him. The one person who could be trusted with this power was his sinless son of Mary.

And what does this scripture mean?

John 14
7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

 

[oatmeal]

Therefore, He is God. The distinction between the terms "Son" and "God" is YOUR distinction and is not known to the scripture.

You always assume your distinction without proving it.

It is pitiful that you are actually serious.

Son in John 3:16 is huios

son in Romans 8:14 referring to believers is huios.

son in Matthew 1:20 referring to Joseph is houis.

son in Matthew 7:9 referring to the human sons of evil human fathers

Matthew 26:37

Luke 1:13,36

So all these people are God?

Why do you embarrass yourself so?

Why do you display your ignorance and deceitfulness?

It would be wisdom for you if you simply quit posting until you actually learned some scripture and believed it.

oatmeal

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

It is pitiful that you are actually serious.

Son in John 3:16 is huios

son in Romans 8:14 referring to believers is huios.

son in Matthew 1:20 referring to Joseph is houis.

son in Matthew 7:9 referring to the human sons of evil human fathers

Matthew 26:37

Luke 1:13,36

So all these people are God?

Why do you embarrass yourself so?

Why do you display your ignorance and deceitfulness?

It would be wisdom for you if you simply quit posting until you actually learned some scripture and believed it.

oatmeal

Thanks for proving my point Oats. Sons of men are men. The Son of God is God. This is why the Jews wanted to kill Him, John 19:7; Leviticus 24:16.

 

[Read]

Hi Read, I think I asked a good question. You see the word image an confine it to a likeness, reflection. I see it as a being, a spirit. God is a spirit so his express image is also a spirit. Not just a reflection but a seperated created being.

I see it as God creating another god like creature. I see that creature as Christ the firstborn of all creatures. I see God using this spirit to create everything else. I see all that in Colossians 1:15.

Hebrews just reinforces these thoughts, the same with Philippians 2. This image is not just a reflection, it is a complete copy of the Father with all his fullness. He must have had this fullness before he created the worlds. Jesus said that all power in heaven and earth was given to him by his God (father).

Maybe we should ask "Who really is the son of God?" he is much more than a human, he says he came from God, so the Son must include the spirit that was in him also. Jesus the Christ hense, Jesus Christ one son but two parts. One human, one godlike. That would make Jesus a form of God, the son of God in the flesh with the spirit of his Christ.

As far as your question, the President of the United States is the elected leader of the greatest country on earth.

Peace Read

OK Keypurr,


You managed to answer my question "What is the President of the United States." Not being an American patriot your answer did not enter my head.

So you still think that you:"asked a good question."

However I still maintain that the question of this thread "What is the express image of God?" is flawed and leading us astray. The reason is because your question is grammatically misleading but I am having trouble explaining this.

Let me try to explain by quoting Hebrews1:1-3:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

God...hath...spoken...by his Son..Who being...the express image of his person...sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

In the sentence I have formed the term "the express image of his person" describes the similarity of God's Son to Himself. A legitimate question would be "Who is the express image of God?" The answer given in context is "his Son" (verse 2). The expression "the express image of God" demands a who not a what. God's Son Jesus is the express image of God. By asking what is the image you have split Jesus in two and claim to see "Jesus Christ one son but two parts."

Psa 2:1 says "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?"

Keypurr you are imagining a vain thing.

Keypurr let me try using the NIV and get away from the King James word "image" which has apparently bedazzled you. Hebrews 3:1-3 reads in the NIV:

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

So now we have the expression "the exact representation of his being."

The verse teaches that "His Son is the exact representation of his (God's) being." That answers the question "Who is the exact representation of his (God's) being." God is a "who" not a "what".


Now lets ask your question using the NIV:

"What is the exact representation of God's being?"

Kindly answer this question Keypurr and without the word "image" see if you still come up with "Jesus Christ one son but two parts."

All the best.


Read!

 

[keypurr]

And what does this scripture mean?

John 14
7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

He was a exact copy of his father BR. If you saw him you have seen the father, not talking visually now, the inner person. He had the mind and words of his father. He had the same personhood as his father. He spoke as his father. We both know that God does not have a beard, right?

Peace

 

[keypurr]

OK Keypurr,


You managed to answer my question "What is the President of the United States." Not being an American patriot your answer did not enter my head.

So you still think that you:"asked a good question."

However I still maintain that the question of this thread "What is the express image of God?" is flawed and leading us astray. The reason is because your question is grammatically misleading but I am having trouble explaining this.

Let me try to explain by quoting Hebrews1:1-3:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

God...hath...spoken...by his Son..Who being...the express image of his person...sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

In the sentence I have formed the term "the express image of his person" describes the similarity of God's Son to Himself. A legitimate question would be "Who is the express image of God?" The answer given in context is "his Son" (verse 2). The expression "the express image of God" demands a who not a what. God's Son Jesus is the express image of God. By asking what is the image you have split Jesus in two and claim to see "Jesus Christ one son but two parts."

Oh friend, let me explaine again. This express image was used by the father to created the worlds. It had the fullness of the father.
Now, Jesus was not in the picture until Mary gave birth to him, he is a human who God created in Mary. Jesus was NOT with the father before the worlds were. BUT Christ was. The express image of God is not a man, it is a spirit. God is not a man. So in effect Jesus had a human nature yet Christ was in him. So he had the father's nature also. Christ spoke through Jesus. Jesus dide on the cross, not Christ. Christ is a form of God, he cannot die. But Jesus could.

Psa 2:1 says "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?"

Keypurr you are imagining a vain thing.

I though so at first friend, but now I know that I am on to something.

Keypurr let me try using the NIV and get away from the King James word "image" which has apparently bedazzled you. Hebrews 3:1-3 reads in the NIV:

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

So now we have the expression "the exact representation of his being."

The verse teaches that "His Son is the exact representation of his (God's) being." That answers the question "Who is the exact representation of his (God's) being." God is a "who" not a "what".

If God is a spirit an exact image is also a spirit. Scriptures calls god the father, so we can relate to him. So a copy of HIM would be a HE. But it is still a spirit not a man.

Now lets ask your question using the NIV:

"What is the exact representation of God's being?"

Kindly answer this question Keypurr and without the word "image" see if you still come up with "Jesus Christ one son but two parts."

All the best.


Read!

Lets answer it with scripture, I will use the NIV for you:

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

That makes him a copy of God, so he is a form of god

Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

The firstborn, first creation. In the likeness of the father.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

He is a god, he did the creating .

Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

He had the fullness of his father and the father was pleased. He is a god.

Hebrews again:

Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."
Heb 1:10 He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

God calls him a god.
Now that means there are two God's? That is in vilolation of his commandments. But wait. Jesus says that his father is the ONLY TRUE GOD However Jesus is called the son of the most high God. So Christ, the express image of God must be a lesser god, for he is created.

The Apostle Paul says we have ONE God and ONE Lord. The Father is the only true God, his son is a lesser form of god. God's Christ is the express image of the father. Notice I said Christ, not Jesus. Jesus did not pre exsist, Christ did.

I hope you can see my theory Read, it really needs a lot of study and thought to fully understand. Thank you for your post.

Peace

 

[Read]

the simplicity that is in Christ

the simplicity that is in Christ

Oh friend, let me explaine again. This express image was used by the father to created the worlds. It had the fullness of the father.
Now, Jesus was not in the picture until Mary gave birth to him, he is a human who God created in Mary. Jesus was NOT with the father before the worlds were. BUT Christ was. The express image of God is not a man, it is a spirit. God is not a man. So in effect Jesus had a human nature yet Christ was in him. So he had the father's nature also. Christ spoke through Jesus. Jesus dide on the cross, not Christ. Christ is a form of God, he cannot die. But Jesus could.



I though so at first friend, but now I know that I am on to something.



If God is a spirit an exact image is also a spirit. Scriptures calls god the father, so we can relate to him. So a copy of HIM would be a HE. But it is still a spirit not a man.




Lets answer it with scripture, I will use the NIV for you:

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

That makes him a copy of God, so he is a form of god#/B##/COLOR#

Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom #U#of the Son #/U#he loves,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins#
Col 1:15 #B##U#He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation# #/U##/B#

#COLOR="royalblue"##B#The firstborn, first creation# In the likeness of the father##/B##/COLOR#

Col 1:16 #U#For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him##/U#

#COLOR="royalblue"##B#He is a god, he did the creating ##/B##/COLOR#

Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together#
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy#
Col 1:19 #B##U##YELLOW#For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him#/YELLOW##/U##/B#,

#COLOR="royalblue"##B#He had the fullness of his father and the father was pleased# He is a god##/B##/COLOR#

Hebrews again:

Heb 1:8 #U#But about the Son he says#/U#, #YELLOW#"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom# #/YELLOW#
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore #YELLOW#God, your God#/YELLOW#, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy#"
Heb 1:10 He also says, #U#"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth#/U#, and the heavens are the work of your hands#

#COLOR="royalblue"#God calls him a god##/COLOR#
Now that means there are two God's? That is in vilolation of his commandments# #B##COLOR="royalblue"#But wait#/COLOR##/B## Jesus says that his father is the #B##U#ONLY TRUE GOD#/U##/B# However Jesus is called #U#the son of the most high God#/U## So Christ, the express image of God must be a lesser god, for he is created.

The Apostle Paul says we have ONE God and ONE Lord. The Father is the only true God, his son is a lesser form of god. God's Christ is the express image of the father. Notice I said Christ, not Jesus. Jesus did not pre exsist, Christ did.

I hope you can see my theory Read, it really needs a lot of study and thought to fully understand. Thank you for your post.

Peace

Keypurr,

Thankyou for spending so much time explaining your theory to me. But oh! you certainly have weaved a tangled web - hardly the "simplicity that is in Christ" that I know. However your time has not been wasted as I understand better so let me try again to show you, from a different angle, why your idea may be flawed.

You write: "God's Christ is the express image of the father" and "The express image of God is not a man, it is a spirit." If 'the express image' is Christ and the express image is not a man, then your logic drives us to the conclusion that Christ is not a man.

But this idea opposes 1Timothy 2:5 which teaches us that Christ is a man : "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Your idea that Christ is not a man is also refuted by the woman at the well in John 4:29 who called Christ a man: "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?"

Rom_5:15 also afirms that Christ is a man: "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

How do you explain that Christ is a man Keypurr?

You believe that: "Jesus Christ one son but two parts." So you say that: "Jesus was NOT with the father before the worlds were. BUT Christ was."

OK Keypurr what do you do with Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever," which denies that the Christ part of the Son of God existed before the Jesus Part?

I hope this feedback helps you, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Read!

 

[keypurr]

Keypurr,

Thankyou for spending so much time explaining your theory to me. But oh! you certainly have weaved a tangled web - hardly the "simplicity that is in Christ" that I know. However your time has not been wasted as I understand better so let me try again to show you, from a different angle, why your idea may be flawed.

You write: "God's Christ is the express image of the father" and "The express image of God is not a man, it is a spirit." If 'the express image' is Christ and the express image is not a man, then your logic drives us to the conclusion that Christ is not a man.

But this idea opposes 1Timothy 2:5 which teaches us that Christ is a man : "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Your idea that Christ is not a man is also refuted by the woman at the well in John 4:29 who called Christ a man: "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?"

Rom_5:15 also afirms that Christ is a man: "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

How do you explain that Christ is a man Keypurr?

You believe that: "Jesus Christ one son but two parts." So you say that: "Jesus was NOT with the father before the worlds were. BUT Christ was."

OK Keypurr what do you do with Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever," which denies that the Christ part of the Son of God existed before the Jesus Part?

I hope this feedback helps you, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Read!

When did Jesus become the Christ? Christ was with God in the beginning of creation. Jesus was born many years later. Jesus was born as a man. God put the Christ spirit IN Jesus. Then Jesus the man became Jesus Christ. Jesus was given power and wisdom at his baptism. (Acts 10:38) And Christ became a man.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Christ is a spirit that God put into Jesus. Jesus could, being a man, serve as the sacrifice for mankind. I believe that in effect, God was in Jesus. God did many great things THROUGH Jesus, But he used the Christ spirit to make the worlds.

Peace

 

[freelight]

mirror of God.......

mirror of God.......

I think that is what we are debating. If Christ is the express image of God he would be a created spirit. For God is a spirit and an image is a creation.

If the Christ spirit controlled the mind of Jesus, that would like God in Jesus. I believe that Christ spoke though Jesus. That wouls be the same as God speaking through Jesus.

I preface this quest-ion again with my previous post of it coming down to 'semantics' more or less. The essential points still hold -

Image, substance and form

I'm also quite familiar with the old Unitarian/Trinitarian debate which provides some background -

Unitarian Christianity

Historical Arian Christianity

While 'God' is Infinite Spirit, Pure Energy, Primordial Consciousness, Eternal Love, etc....this 'God-Presence' is still manifested in the form of Man as we are the vehicle thru which God acts, perceives and knows the movements and relations of Creation. The Matrix reflects itself thru many individual points. Adam (the original Man) is the archetypal image and form of 'God'. This imaging of 'God' came forth again in space/time in the person of Jesus....as he is as a 'Second' or 'Last' Adam. It still all comes back to the perfect primordial 'Man',...or the Adam Kadmon as we learn in the Kaballah and other estoric traditions.

That pure germ and archetypal pattern is 'Man'. Jesus is the pure 'Son' or manifestation of the original Adam, futher anointed and illumined by the Spirit of God, - either way...making him BOTH Son of Man, and Son of God. We can slice or dice things in myriad ways whatever Christology we assume.

Christ is a spirit that God put into Jesus. Jesus could, being a man, serve as the sacrifice for mankind. I believe that in effect, God was in Jesus. God did many great things THROUGH Jesus, But he used the Christ spirit to make the worlds.

From an esoteric, gnostic or New Thought Christian perspective....'Christ' is often seen as seperate from the Man Jesus, being the Spirit-Light-Anointing-Divinity of God abiding in Jesus and operating thru him. Jesus therefore is baptized and anointed by God's Spirit, the Christ-Spirit coming upon him, working thru him (within and withut). It is still all 'God', no matter how you differentiate or assume Jesus is functioning as the AGENT of 'God' or 'God' in manifestation. We all still worship and respect the Lord Jesus as 'God' because we look to the divine Spirit in Jesus and communion with the same Father-Source, which is ONE.

Furthermore, since God is Spirit....that Spirit still assumes form(s), as we see thru-out all Creation, for that Spirit-energy and Universal MIND is expressing itSelf (the creative logos). Man is the nexus of God individualizing himself, in substance and form...because All That Is....originates from Spirit...morphing into forms that are perceivable and relatable.




pj

 

[Bright Raven]

Keypurr, I saw this quote in your last post. How could the Christ be a spirit if He offered His flesh and blood as a sacrifice?

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Luke 24:39

King James Version

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

[Read]

When did Jesus become the Christ? Christ was with God in the beginning of creation. Jesus was born many years later. Jesus was born as a man. God put the Christ spirit IN Jesus. Then Jesus the man became Jesus Christ. Jesus was given power and wisdom at his baptism. (Acts 10:38) And Christ became a man.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Christ is a spirit that God put into Jesus. Jesus could, being a man, serve as the sacrifice for mankind. I believe that in effect, God was in Jesus. God did many great things THROUGH Jesus, But he us the Christ spirit to make the worlds.

Peace

Keypurr,

In your previous email you say that: " Jesus dide on the cross, not Christ. Christ is a form of God, he cannot die. But Jesus could."

Your theory is leading you completly astray, and is causing you to deny that it was "Christ" who died for the sins of the world.

Keypurr your statement that: "Christ is a form of God, he cannot die" is prejudical to the gospel. Here are 8 verses of scripture which deny your heresy that Christ cannot and therefore did not die:

Rom_5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom_5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom_8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom_14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom_14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
1Co_8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co_15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
2Co_5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:


Read!

 

[Bright Raven]

Keypurr,

In your previous email you say that: " Jesus dide on the cross, not Christ. Christ is a form of God, he cannot die. But Jesus could."

Your theory is leading you completly astray, and is causing you to deny that it was "Christ" who died for the sins of the world.

Keypurr your statement that: "Christ is a form of God, he cannot die" is prejudical to the gospel. Here are 8 verses of scripture which deny your heresy that Christ cannot and therefore did not die:

Rom_5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom_5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom_8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom_14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom_14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
1Co_8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co_15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
2Co_5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:


Read!

Good Post!

 

[keypurr]

I preface this quest-ion again with my previous post of it coming down to 'semantics' more or less. The essential points still hold -

Image, substance and form

I'm also quite familiar with the old Unitarian/Trinitarian debate which provides some background -

Unitarian Christianity

Historical Arian Christianity

While 'God' is Infinite Spirit, Pure Energy, Primordial Consciousness, Eternal Love, etc....this 'God-Presence' is still manifested in the form of Man as we are the vehicle thru which God acts, perceives and knows the movements and relations of Creation. The Matrix reflects itself thru many individual points. Adam (the original Man) is the archetypal image and form of 'God'. This imaging of 'God' came forth again in space/time in the person of Jesus....as he is as a 'Second' or 'Last' Adam. It still all comes back to the perfect primordial 'Man',...or the Adam Kadmon as we learn in the Kaballah and other estoric traditions.

That pure germ and archetypal pattern is 'Man'. Jesus is the pure 'Son' or manifestation of the original Adam, futher anointed and illumined by the Spirit of God, - either way...making him BOTH Son of Man, and Son of God. We can slice or dice things in myriad ways whatever Christology we assume.



From an esoteric, gnostic or New Thought Christian perspective....'Christ' is often seen as seperate from the Man Jesus, being the Spirit-Light-Anointing-Divinity of God abiding in Jesus and operating thru him. Jesus therefore is baptized and anointed by God's Spirit, the Christ-Spirit coming upon him, working thru him (within and withut). It is still all 'God', no matter how you differentiate or assume Jesus is functioning as the AGENT of 'God' or 'God' in manifestation. We all still worship and respect the Lord Jesus as 'God' because we look to the divine Spirit in Jesus and communion with the same Father-Source, which is ONE.

Furthermore, since God is Spirit....that Spirit still assumes form(s), as we see thru-out all Creation, for that Spirit-energy and Universal MIND is expressing itSelf (the creative logos). Man is the nexus of God individualizing himself, in substance and form...because All That Is....originates from Spirit...morphing into forms that are perceivable and relatable.




pj

I understand you believe that the express image of God is God, is that correct? I would have to disagree with that. It would not be an image then. But I do accept that it would represent God, and speak as God.

It is hard for humans to understand the power of God or his Christ. I don't think mankind is fully equipped to do so at times. I put no limits of what God can do or what form he can take. I do believe that all things do come from the Father.

Thank you for your thoughts friend

 

[keypurr]

Keypurr, I saw this quote in your last post. How could the Christ be a spirit if He offered His flesh and blood as a sacrifice?



Luke 24:39

King James Version

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Christ and Jesus were united together BR. That is when Jesus became the Christ and Christ became a man, Jesus Christ. You will not see the spirit but you can see the man. I can see you but I can't see your mind. God does not have bones and blood, he is spirit. This could be another reason why he made his express image. It is a way to create a stainless Lamb.

Peace

 

[keypurr]

Keypurr,

In your previous email you say that: " Jesus dide on the cross, not Christ. Christ is a form of God, he cannot die. But Jesus could."

Your theory is leading you completly astray, and is causing you to deny that it was "Christ" who died for the sins of the world.

Keypurr your statement that: "Christ is a form of God, he cannot die" is prejudical to the gospel. Here are 8 verses of scripture which deny your heresy that Christ cannot and therefore did not die:

Rom_5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom_5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom_8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom_14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom_14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
1Co_8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co_15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
2Co_5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:


Read!

Yes, Christ the man died. You just pointed something out to me that is important. When Christ went into man he took the form of man, so he could die. I stand corrected.

But it only reinforces my thoughts. Now we know why God made an experss image, so it could lower itself and take the form of man. (Philippians 2) God could not send himself to die for us, he sent his Christ (son). Now I see a reason for the express image. Christ could die when he took the form of man.

Thank you Read for pointing that out to me, the puzzle is almost complete. Now I ask, what form was he when his Father raised him and he appeared in the closed room?

Peace