Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I notice that you had predestination before being saved! It is your ideas which are contradicted by the scriptures.
All you prove is that you are unable to have an intelligent discussion on this subject.
ECT What is Predestination?
- Thread starter nikolai_42
- Start date
I notice that you had predestination before being saved! It is your ideas which are contradicted by the scriptures.
All you prove is that you are unable to have an intelligent discussion on this subject.
Then I suggest you read again, and intelligent conversation is a two way street which you fail to negotiate.
God foreknows those who will be saved, then He predestines them to be conformed. They are the THOSE in v29, which is something you should have picked up had you read my post with ANY desire to learn.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I have already shown you that what you said there is wrong. And you were unable to demonstrate that what I said about that is in error:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done...because...it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because it was determined beforehand that they would be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body. That is how all things work together for good to the saved.
So far you have just IGNORED the conjuction connecting the two verses. What meaning do you put on that conjuction translated "for" at verse 29?
Who He foreknew He also predestined ... not who He did not know
How can even God predestine a people He doesn't know?
How can even God predestine a people He doesn't know?
How often do you have to be told, Totty, that open view theists do not believe that we are saved because we love Jesus, before it gets through your thick skull and you stop spreading lies about us?
We believe that Christ saves us through his death on the cross.
OK?
Or do you keep repeating it in the hope that you won't have to deal with what we really believe?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I might have expressed my thoughts in an unclear manner but that is not what I meant. Let us look at this passage again:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
Here Paul is saying that all things work together for good to those saved (them that love God, the called) and the reason he can say that is because it has been determined beforehand that the saved will be conformed to the image of the Son. And that will happen when the saints are caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will put on glorious bodies just like His (Phil.3:21).
Do you agree with that?
Yes. He called us for the purpose of being conformed to Jesus. Although that purpose begins when we are converted, not just when 'we are caught up in the air' (or whatever your eschatology is). He called us to this life of conformity and when we responded we entered into it. He said "Hands up for doughnuts!" and we replied enthusiastically "Me, please!". He didn't just say "Hands up!" or "Hands up for doughnuts in a thousand years time!"- he wouldn't get much a response from that, would he!
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Jerry you do this all the time. You pick out phrases from context to make them suit your purpose. That is called EISEGESIS Jerry and most of us KNOW what it means and implies. V30 give the order, and if you don't accept that then there is there is TWO callings and TWO predestinations.
The word 'AND' at the start of v30 adds and completes Paul's thoughts from v29, which anyone with a basic understanding of common English grammatical rules would understand. Those who translated the Greek here DID so I'm afraid your assertion are refuted.
Moving on...
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
We were not discussing the conjunction which begins the 30th verse but instead the 29th verse.
I said:
So far you have just IGNORED the conjuction connecting the two verses. What meaning do you put on that conjuction translated "for" at verse 29?
Instead of addressing that about the 29th verse you talk about a conjunction which starts verse 30.
You prove once again that you are totally confused and that is why it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you.
and that is why you get yourself into trouble. That is NOT how one reads the Bible and it is not the complete context of what was being discussed. It doesn't really matter if you throw in erroneous assertions, most of us KNOW how to deal with the context.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You understand nothing about this discussion so you shouldn't be lecturing others who do know what this discussion is about. I asked for the meaning of the conjunction that begins verse 29 and you give me the meaning of the conjunction which begins verse 30.
You remain in a state of utter confusion. And the sad thing is you have no interest in knowing the truth.
And that is why you still refuse to give me the meaning of the conjunction which begins verse 29.
You are a sad case!
Mite touchy aren't you? I saw a post which said God saved us because He foresaw that we would love Christ...I don't care what label they wear it is wrong.
nor do you
Yeh that's what all the people I refute here say. Not surprising as they have nothing else to say.
ALL the verse go together and you CAN'T pick them apart Jerry, REGARDLESS of what you assert.
Sad is as sad does Jerry...you should know.
Your apologies are accepted. As you didn't seem to be quoting anyone I took your post to be about OV.
But if it was about StanJ's previous post that still wasn't what he said.
He said:
Now I don't agree with StanJ, but if you were referring to this then you have misrepresented him, even though it wasn't me who you misrepresented. Clearly he too believes that our salvation is because of Christ our saviour, not because of our own choice. It's time you rethought this.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What is sad is the fact that you still have not given the meaning which you think is correct for the Greek word translated "for" here:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
You talk big but when it comes to backing up your ideas by what the Scriptures actually say all you do is run and hide. I am not picking these two verses apart, as you infer, but instead I am showing how they relate to each other.
But since you could care less about what Paul is saying in these two verses you will not even give the meaning of the Greek word that ties the two verses together.
Why is that?
He said our salvation was by our action of loving Him I did not misrepresent him at all
No. You have completely misread what he wrote. Or rather completely read into it.
Again:
Their action of choosing to love God was how God knew in advance who would be his. Nothing in this sentence indicates that anyone's choice got them saved. In fact it is quite explicit the part I have highlighted that it is quite the opposite. It is obvious that the Son saves them, not they themselves. God might have known that in advance but it doesn't change the essential.
As I said, I don't agree with this, but you are wrong and you need to think again.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here we see exactly why the Lord elected some and not others:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
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