ECT What is Predestination?

[StanJ]

Here we see exactly why the Lord elected some and not others:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
​

AGAIN, you cherry pick verses right OUT of context. First of all the verse you quote says NOTHING about election and secondly if you read a little further you will see in v15, that Paul instructs them to "stand firm and hold fast", which is not something one would say if they held to your doctrine POV, as I assume you are Calvinist by this thread?
The elected ARE Christians...and it is a title you obviously don't understand.

 

[StanJ]

What is sad is the fact that you still have not given the meaning which you think is correct for the Greek word translated "for" here:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
​

You talk big but when it comes to backing up your ideas by what the Scriptures actually say all you do is run and hide. I am not picking these two verses apart, as you infer, but instead I am showing how they relate to each other.
But since you could care less about what Paul is saying in these two verses you will not even give the meaning of the Greek word that ties the two verses together.
Why is that?

It's best YOU make YOUR point instead of just deflecting to another issue Jerry. That is called obduscation which you do constandtly. We know you don't know Greek very well, and assume a lot from your dogmatic POV. SHOW us what you actually KNOW.
Go ahead, and tell us what ὅτι / hóti means and HOW you will implicate your POV?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It's best YOU make YOUR point instead of just deflecting to another issue Jerry.

You refuse to give the definition of the Greek word translated "for" at the beginning of Romans 8:29 and then you want to lecture me on how to behave on this thread. You run and hide from the truth revealed at Romans 8:28-29 and then you lecture others on how to behave on this thread.

We know you don't know Greek very well, and assume a lot from your dogmatic POV. SHOW us what you actually KNOW.
Go ahead, and tell us what ὅτι / hóti means and HOW you will implicate your POV?

I have already quoted a Greek expert as to its meaning at Romans 8:29. Of course I am sure that you think that you know more about the Greek language than any recognized Greek expert. Again, here it is again:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For (ὅτι) whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).​

The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done...because...it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

All you have done is to insist that the meaning which I gave for ὅτι is in error and then when I asked you to give what you think is the correct meaning of the word at Romans 8:29 you refuse!

You are nothing but a cheap shot artist who adds nothing worthwhile on any thread of which you partake.

 

[StanJ]

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For (ὅτι) whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done...because...it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
All you have done is to insist that the meaning which I gave for ὅτι is in error and then when I asked you to give what you think is the correct meaning of the word at Romans 8:29 you refuse!
You are nothing but a cheap shot artist who adds nothing worthwhile on any thread of which you partake.

I have no problem with what Thayer says, only with how YOU interpret what he says. How this relates to what you have already written, is beyond me, but it is up to you to make the point, NOT me. Try doing it with as little equivocal language as possible OK?

As I initially posted, v29 refers to those who LOVE God in verse 28 and yet even when you are told by an expert that is what it conveys you still argue, although to what end, we have no idea?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

AGAIN, you cherry pick verses right OUT of context. First of all the verse you quote says NOTHING about election...

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "elect" is "picked out, chosen" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Now let us look at this verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

According to your uneducated opinion this verse has nothing to do with election!

and secondly if you read a little further you will see in v15, that Paul instructs them to "stand firm and hold fast", which is not something one would say if they held to your doctrine POV, as I assume you are Calvinist by this thread?

No, I am not a Calvinist and you are completely in the dark about the meaning of election. Again, you have offered nothing worthwhile on this thread and all you have offered is your ignorant opinions.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have no problem with what Thayer says, only with how YOU interpret what he says.

Then tell me exactly how I am wrong in the way that I have interpreted Thayer's definition:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).

Here Paul is saying that all things work together for good to those saved (them that love God, the called) and the reason he can say that is because it has been determined beforehand that the saved will be conformed to the image of the Son. And that will happen when the saints are caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will put on glorious bodies just like His (Phil.3:21).

 

[StanJ]

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "elect" is "picked out, chosen" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Now let us look at this verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
​

According to your uneducated opinion this verse has nothing to do with election!
No, I am not a Calvinist and you are completely in the dark about the meaning of election. Again, you have offered nothing worthwhile on this thread and all you have offered is your ignorant opinions.

elect is a Greek word?

If you are trying to say that hairéomai / εἵλατο means chosen, yes that is ONE of it's connotations. The other, more applicable ones are to take for oneself, prefer. This is what the context conveys here.
I have no problem with how it is rendered in English, and it is NOT rendered "elect" so as to convey special privilege or foreordination, like you try to imply.
In the NT, the "elect" is translated from ἐκλεκτός (eklektos), and connotes, a recipient of special privilege, which Christians are. That privilege is Eternal Life.
It does NOT connotes a privilege of salvation or redemption, which is meant for ALL.

So you believe in Sovereign Election but not OSAS?

 

[StanJ]

Then tell me exactly how I am wrong in the way that I have interpreted Thayer's definition:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).

Here Paul is saying that all things work together for good to those saved (them that love God, the called) and the reason he can say that is because it has been determined beforehand that the saved will be conformed to the image of the Son. And that will happen when the saints are caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will put on glorious bodies just like His (Phil.3:21).

I have Jerry but you are now going in circles and I don't go in circles. Go back and read what I said now that you're following, and ask or respond pertinently.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

elect is a Greek word?

Are you really this dense? I said:

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "elect" is "picked out, chosen" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).​

I never said that the word "elect" is a Greek word!

If you are trying to say that hairéomai / εἵλατο means chosen, yes that is ONE of it's connotations. The other, more applicable ones are to take for oneself, prefer. This is what the context conveys here.

No, the context speaks of the "chosen" of the Lord:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

How could you miss that? The only way that I can imagine is because you just closed your eyes to the truth.

In the NT, the "elect" is translated from ἐκλεκτός (eklektos), and connotes, a recipient of special privilege, which Christians are. That privilege is Eternal Life.
It does NOT connotes a privilege of salvation or redemption, which is meant for ALL.

You really have no understanding of the basic things in regard to salvation during the present dispensation. You think that being elect connotes a privilege which is eternal life but that has nothing to do with salvation. It is impossible to have this eternal life without being saved:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

How is it possible to have eternal life in the Son yet not be saved?

I have Jerry but you are now going in circles and I don't go in circles. Go back and read what I said now that you're following, and ask or respond pertinently.

You have not. And I am not talking in circles. Let us look at this passage again and you will see the meaning which I place on it:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).​

Here Paul is saying that all things work together for good to those saved (them that love God, the called) and the reason he can say that is because it has been determined beforehand that the saved will be conformed to the image of the Son. And that will happen when the saints are caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will put on glorious bodies just like His (Phil.3:21).

Since you think my interpretation of the meaning of Romans 8:28-29 is in error then you must think that you know its correct meaning.

What is your interpretation of the meaning of Paul's words at Romans 8:28-29?

 

[StanJ]

Are you really this dense? I said:The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "elect" is "picked out, chosen" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
I never said that the word "elect" is a Greek word!

No but apparently you are.

The only way that I can imagine is because you just closed your eyes to the truth.

Which is the way all people of your ilk try and make themselves sound wise but ultimately end up proving they are foolish.

You really have no understanding of the basic things in regard to salvation during the present dispensation. You think that being elect connotes a privilege which is eternal life but that has nothing to do with salvation. It is impossible to have this eternal life without being saved:"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).
How is it possible to have eternal life in the Son yet not be saved?

Really? Pretty sure I said that, but then again you seem to only understand your own thoughts. Salvation is NOT a privilege as such but what those saved receive is Only for the saved/elect. That you don't understand you don't have something until you actually HAVE it is beyond my ability to make any clearer. Eternal Life is IN Jesus, not in us until we actually receive it. Pay attention to what you read.

You have not. And I am not talking in circles. Let us look at this passage again and you will see the meaning which I place on it:"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
Here Paul is saying that all things work together for good to those saved (them that love God, the called) and the reason he can say that is because it has been determined beforehand that the saved will be conformed to the image of the Son. And that will happen when the saints are caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will put on glorious bodies just like His (Phil.3:21).

LOL...you say you are not then do the circle thing again? :loser:
I see the meaning YOU place on it, which is NOT the meaning it actually conveys.
Salvation is NOT determined beforehand, predestination in being conformed to the image of His Son is what is. Again you FAIL in your comprehension level.

Since you think my interpretation of the meaning of Romans 8:28-29 is in error then you must think that you know its correct meaning.

I KNOW.

What is your interpretation of the meaning of Paul's words at Romans 8:28-29?

Have already stated them. Pay attention.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He said our salvation was by our action of loving Him I did not misrepresent him at all

Here we see exactly why the Lord elected some and not others:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

 

[StanJ]

Here we see exactly why the Lord elected some and not others:
"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

Which basically says the same thing Jesus did in in John 6:44 (NIV)

What God has CHOSEN is how one is saved, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, not WHO is saved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What God has CHOSEN is how one is saved, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, not WHO is saved.

Let us look at this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Christians are chosen before the foundation of the world "in Him." Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

And these words of Paul mirror what he wrote at Ephesians 1:4:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

According to your ideas being elected has nothing to do with salvation!

Your ideas match those of the Calvinists!

 

[StanJ]

Let us look at this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).
​

Christians are chosen before the foundation of the world "in Him." Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).
​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

And these words of Paul mirror what he wrote at Ephesians 1:4:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
​

According to your ideas being elected has nothing to do with salvation!

Your ideas match those of the Calvinists!

Already answered this Jerry. Reframing it just means you don't accept proper instruction.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Already answered this Jerry. Reframing it just means you don't accept proper instruction.

You have never answered it!

Here are your own words:

In the NT, the "elect" is translated from ἐκλεκτός (eklektos), and connotes, a recipient of special privilege, which Christians are. That privilege is Eternal Life.
It does NOT connotes a privilege of salvation or redemption, which is meant for ALL.

 

[Totton Linnet]

He foreknew all His created children.

He predestined all His created Children.

All have the opportunity to access forgiveness and Christs work.

Not All walk in that gift or repent, believe, receive, confess.

to assume He did not foreknow all his created children diminishes His omniscience.

to assume He did not Give all His Created children the opportunity to repent and believe diminishes The Fathers love.

This is the great fallacy of all freewillery


"all have the opportunity" really? is that really true? have there not come and gone BILLIONS who never did hear the true message of the cross?

 

[StanJ]

You have never answered it!

Here are your own words:

Go back a little further Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Go back a little further Jerry.

Why should I go back any? Or are you now admitting what you said here is in error?:

In the NT, the "elect" is translated from ἐκλεκτός (eklektos), and connotes, a recipient of special privilege, which Christians are. That privilege is Eternal Life.
It does NOT connotes a privilege of salvation or redemption, which is meant for ALL.

 

[StanJ]

Why should I go back any? Or are you now admitting what you said here is in error?:

You can either go back and get the full context of what I've posted, or not and move on in ignorance. I don't truly care Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You can either go back and get the full context of what I've posted, or not and move on in ignorance.

What you said here cannot possibly be misunderstood:

In the NT, the "elect" is translated from ἐκλεκτός (eklektos), and connotes, a recipient of special privilege, which Christians are. That privilege is Eternal Life.
It does NOT connotes a privilege of salvation or redemption, which is meant for ALL.

If you actually said something that changes the meaning of what you said in "bold" then quote what you said. And I couldn't care less what you do. But I have already proved what you wrote is a BIG BLUNDER by using this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Christians are chosen before the foundation of the world "in Him." Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

And these words of Paul mirror what he wrote at Ephesians 1:4:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

According to your ideas being elected has nothing to do with salvation!