beloved57
Well-known member
Rom 8:29 proves you wrong, one is forekown of God before they believe!
ECT What is Predestination?
- Thread starter nikolai_42
- Start date
Rom 8:29 proves you wrong, one is forekown of God before they believe!
God foreknows everything, so that is a rather inane view of predestination. Rom 8:28-30 (NIV) shows God ONLY predestines those He FOREKNOWS will choose His son as their savior. That predestining has to do with becoming Christ like. Read your Bible.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done...because...it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son.
When the word "foreknown" is used it is referring to "the called" and that is in regard to those who are already saved.
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beloved57
Well-known member
Being predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ entails Salvation!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, it is those who are already saved who are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.
beloved57
Well-known member
It is those God foreknew,they were foreknew before they were called and became believers Rom 8:29-30 !
According to John 3:16
beloved57
Well-known member
That's the world of Israel that God so Loved Deuteronomy 7:6-7!
That is those of the world who love God's son.
beloved57
Well-known member
Israel Is a Elect people, not all people! So God doesn't Love all people!
Oops, double talk. I'm ashamed of you B57. Some day you may get it right.
beloved57
Well-known member
See you at the Judgment!
Why doesn't your inability to reply intelligently surprise me.
j4jesus09
New member
Enjoyed your thoughts and your reasoning with the scriptures is very valid. I could bring some scriptures to the table but you probably are familiar with them based off of your thread. If a person reads the entire bible with prayer you can't help but see that God somehow ended up running the entire show to the very detail!! God includes man, but we are so wonderfully designed who knows how we truly operate in His Supreme WILL. Our mind thinks, feels, and is influenced by so much! You brought up enough scripture with the just the Jacob and Esau issue. Also, in Romans it actually deals with this very issue and even discusses Pharaoh's hardening by the hand of God too! God knows the wonderul ending to His plan. That is why God can save some by grace now and some later. Harden some now soften some later. It's all in His purpose. He does so many different things. Who can know the mind of God?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I already explained this to you but evidently you cannot understand it:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done...because...it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son.
When the word "foreknown" is used it is referring to "the called" and that is in regard to those who are already saved.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then explain this verse where people acted contrary to the Lord's will:
" O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Mt.23:37).
Dialogos
Well-known member
The problem with this particular approach to Romans 8:28-30 is that it can’t maintain the integrity of the order that Paul described the process of salvation.
Paul says that those that God foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, and those He predestined He called, and the ones He called He justified, and the ones He justified He glorified.
Your version has to rip calling out of order or redefine the notion of calling altogether. Because God’s call to salvation come after predestination and before justification in Paul’s order while your order must put calling before predestination and after justification.
StanJ, you have to import the notion of God choosing those who will choose His Son into that passage.
If you look at the lexical meaning of προγινοσκω you can see that it can mean both know beforehand and choose beforehand. The former makes the passage rather meaningless because both Calvinists and Arminians affirm that God knows everyone beforehand. And so if you want to use that definition then you most follow the logic all the way through the passage. God knows everyone, predestined everyone, called everyone, justified everyone and glorified everyone. Seen this way and you have universalism.
Of course, this verse presents a larger problem for the Open Theists who don’t believe that God foreknew anyone really.
However, it makes a great deal of sense (without having to add qualifications that the text doesn’t add) to acknowledge that Paul is using προγινοσκω in the sense of choosing beforehand.
Those God chose beforehand, those He predestined, and then He called them. Once calling them, He then justified them, etc…
j4jesus09
New member
Shows God's patience with man in our stubbornness!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
of course you did not even attempt to answer what I said here. if I am in error about what I said about thesetwo verses then tell me exactly what I said is wrong:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done...because...it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).
The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son.
When the word "foreknown" is used it is referring to "the called" and that is in regard to those who are already saved.
it is the ones who are already believers who are predestinated to be confirmed to the image of the Son and that will be fulfilled when the saints are caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air and put on glorious bodies like His.
And those who are thus predestinated are called. And those he called he justified and them he also glorified:
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Ro.8:30).
There is absolutely nothing which I wrote that is contradicted by what this verse says.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That does not explain the fact that those people acted counter to the Lord's will:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Mt.23:37).