What is Free Will?

[Balder]

Does the word coincidence mean anything to you?

Of course.

Does that mean that all the Biblical prophesies are just coincidences, if you are implying that dreaming or having a vision about the future isn't possible? Or are you promoting a double standard, where any apparently accurate premonitions in the Bible are truly "visions of the future," while any fulfilled prophesies or premonitions outside of the Bible are merely coincidences?

But that's really a side issue. Hypothetically, if an ordinary person has such a dream (or even if a prophet has a vision of the future), does that impinge upon the free wills of the individual(s) in the future?

 

[docrob57]

This isn't so. Come on now, lighten up a little. We've been having so much fun on this thread. You have to expect a little light humored ribbing from time to time. If there is a question you really want answered, we'll answer it, I promise.

Nope, I am well known for being able to dish it out but not take it.

Anyway, I will get to the rest later but I have to work right now. My basic question remains, can you tell me something more about free will, and how free will choices occur, other than they just do.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

But the fact is, on this you guys do not put forth anything like a meaningful argument.

Ouch!

 

[docrob57]

And I have asked you guys why this is important to you, but I will tell you why it is important to me. If just doesn't seem reasonable to me that God, who we all admit can foreknow somethings, cannot foreknow everything. Now, if you want to argue that God chooses to limit the extent of His foreknowledge, I guess I could accept that. But otherwise I find it sort of troublesome.

 

[docrob57]

Ouch!

Don't be too ouched. I was just referring to this specific issue.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Don't be too ouched. I was just referring to this specific issue.

Well then, that's much better.

 

[death2impiety]

But the fact is, on this you guys do not put forth anything like a meaningful argument

Ouch!

No worries, I seem to remember a lot of non-believers making statements like this regarding the Battle Royale VII..

 

[Nathon Detroit]

And I have asked you guys why this is important to you, but I will tell you why it is important to me. If just doesn't seem reasonable to me that God, who we all admit can foreknow somethings, cannot foreknow everything. Now, if you want to argue that God chooses to limit the extent of His foreknowledge, I guess I could accept that. But otherwise I find it sort of troublesome.

It's the manner and the extent of the foreknowledge that is in question.

Perfect exhaustive foreknowledge is the sticking point. The implications of perfect exhaustive foreknowledge fly in the face of the message God provided for us in His word therefore I (we) reject it.

 

[docrob57]

No worries, I seem to remember a lot of non-believers making statements like this regarding the Battle Royale VII..

Yeah, but THEY were wrong!

 

[docrob57]

It's the manner and the extent of the foreknowledge that is in question.

Perfect exhaustive foreknowledge is the sticking point. The implications of perfect exhaustive foreknowledge fly in the face of the message God provided for us in His word therefore I (we) reject it.

Right, and of course this is the root of our disagreement since I do not think that perfect exhaustive foreknowledge is inconsistent with Biblical teaching.

 

[Clete]

For me it seems to boil down to the single issue of being able to do otherwise.

Perhaps you could explain two things.

1. Is the ability to do or to do otherwise a necessary condition of having a free will?

2. If God has exhaustive foreknowledge of the future, does a person retain the ability to do other than what God knows he will do? If so how? If not, and your answer to question 1 is "yes" then why don't you agree with us on this?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

For me it seems to boil down to the single issue of being able to do otherwise.

Perhaps you could explain two things.

1. Is the ability to do or to do otherwise a necessary condition of having a free will?

2. If God has exhaustive foreknowledge of the future, does a person retain the ability to do other than what God knows he will do? If so how? If not, and your answer to question 1 is "yes" then why don't you agree with us on this?

Resting in Him,
Clete

1. Yes

2. Yes, because knowledge of an event's outcome does not control the outcome any more than knowledge of a past event controls what happens at the time it happens.

I was listening to a person discuss free will on the way home today, and it occured to me that "free will" is on the left hand side of the equation. In other words, free will is a characteristic of the outcome, not a cause of the outcome. What you guys do is basically place it on both sides of the equation, and that results in statements that are true by definition, and, therefore, don't explain anything.

What makes free will "free," that is a characteristic of the individual and not something externally imposed, is that it emanates from the characteristics of the individual. The peculiar make up of the individual, to some extent in concert with external circumstances, are what lead to a particular choice being made at a particular time. If this were not true, then the various behaviors (such as voting or product purchases) which we can predict pretty will through statistical analysis, would not be predictable at all. The only thing that prohibits humans from being able to perfectly predict human behavior (which is equivalent to perfect exhaustive foreknowledge) is imperfect understanding of the causal processes that lead to the choice or behavior and imperfect ability to measure the traits/ circumstances of the individual. God is not subject to these limitations.

I should note that Bob Enyart implicitly acknowledges this on one of his "The Plot" tapes when he talks about core beliefs influencing future behaviors. I don't paraphrase too much in quoting him as saying that our core beliefs formed early in life determine our future behavior (emphasis added). And he is right! Of course, there are other factors involved, and I know Mr. Enyart would acknowledge that, but he was simplifying for illustrative purposes.

I will stop here and get your response. This may be my longest ever post!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

So Doc I am guessing you will be closely following BRX?

 

[docrob57]

So Doc I am guessing you will be closely following BRX?

Sure, and, as always I will be pulling for Mr. Enyart!!! Perhaps he can cure me of my errant ways. (Note, I have NEVER called in to discuss this issue )

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Sure, and, as always I will be pulling for Mr. Enyart!!! Perhaps he can cure me of my errant ways. (Note, I have NEVER called in to discuss this issue )

I don't understand why you would be "pulling for him" in this instance.

Is it that you want to be convinced you are wrong?

 

[docrob57]

I don't understand why you would be "pulling for him" in this instance.

Is it that you want to be convinced you are wrong?

I would like to, yes. That's what you guys don't understand. And it isn't so much that I want to be proven wrong, but I have no emotional stake in my position. I am willing to change if presented with a reasonable argument. So I look forward to hearing what Pastor Bob has to say.

 

[Clete]

1. Yes

2. Yes, because knowledge of an event's outcome does not control the outcome any more than knowledge of a past event controls what happens at the time it happens.

It is not my position that it controls it. Knowledge of a future event does not effect the event or the person performing it at all (at least not directly or in a physical sense). That is not what we are saying in the slightest. We are not making a physical argument where God's foreknowledge somehow forces the actions of people in the future. We are making a logical argument. If God knows what I will do (not just suspects or accurately predicts it, but absolutely knows it as a complete certainty, as if He witnessed the event before it happened) then that knowledge logically eliminates my ability to do otherwise and thus removes my freedom by definition. Not because the knowledge itself is somehow a causal factor but because the logical possibility of my having done anything else is removed.

Causality is yet another means by which my freedom is detroyed but I don't have time right now to get into that. I'll get to that when I respond to the rest of your post tomorrow.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Delmar]

All this equation stuff gets a little to complicated for me to wrap my brain around. I tend to look at these things in simpler terms. I guess, for the most part, I believe in free will because I want to. I want to believe that God doesn’t want to control me like a puppet. I want to believe my wife loves me because she chose to. I want to believe that God wants me to have that kind of freedom!

 

[God_Is_Truth]

All this equation stuff gets a little to complicated for me to wrap my brain around. I tend to look at these things in simpler terms. I guess, for the most part, I believe in free will because I want to. I want to believe that God doesn’t want to control me like a puppet. I want to believe my wife loves me because she chose to. I want to believe that God wants me to have that kind of freedom!

and even if it's not that way, that means God predestined you to want to feel that way!

 

[Delmar]

and even if it's not that way, that means God predestined you to want to feel that way!

... by granting me freedom!