What is Free Will?

[Balder]

A . . the person in the avatar is Adlai Stevenson
B . . Bald-man was a term of respect and admiration :banana:

A. I knew that old guy looked familiar!
B. I don't think you have anything to worry about. I'm not a prophet, so I doubt any she-bears are on the way.

A more serious response to your first question will follow, I promise!

 

[docrob57]

A. I knew that old guy looked familiar!
B. I don't think you have anything to worry about. I'm not a prophet, so I doubt any she-bears are on the way.

A more serious response to your first question will follow, I promise!

Good!

 

[Delmar]

Well, that is one way of looking at it I suppose. I have never seen that particular passage portrayed that way. But that doesn't make it wrong.

In any event, if anyone would like to rejoin the discussion concerning the role of "randomness," I am here and ready to take on all comers.

OK I do realize that you see God as being "outside of time" but if He were not, do you still see it as feasible that God would have known the winner of yesterdays coin toss before he created the universe?

 

[docrob57]

OK I do realize that you see God as being "outside of time" but if He were not, do you still see it as feasible that God would have known the winner of yesterdays coin toss before he created the universe?

I think He absolutely could have known. I don't know if He would have been attentive to it. And I am not sure I see God as "outside of time," but my son the Christian physicist tells me this is possible, and it seems that if it is possible it would be likely in the case of God.

 

[Delmar]

I think He absolutely could have known...

How?

 

[docrob57]

How?

Think about a coin flip. Is it really random? Probably not. The outcome depends on a whole lot of factors such as the side the coin is on when it is flipped, the force with which it is flipped, the number of rotations, where it lands, etc.

People don't exercise enough control over these things to keep the distribution of flips to be anything other than 50:50 over a large number of flips. But it is still a deterministic process.

 

[Yorzhik]

One thing it could mean: that we are here at all indicates the stamp of the eternal in us.

Could be. Or it could be that there is a beginning to existence.

 

[Yorzhik]

Think about a coin flip. Is it really random? Probably not. The outcome depends on a whole lot of factors such as the side the coin is on when it is flipped, the force with which it is flipped, the number of rotations, where it lands, etc.

People don't exercise enough control over these things to keep the distribution of flips to be anything other than 50:50 over a large number of flips. But it is still a deterministic process.

I think Insolified (sp) provides the only way out, but this creates the problem of God being the first cause. God must, by His righteous character, start with different causes to avoid evil if God can.

Insolified (sp) says that if God creates freewill creatures, then the possibility of creating the first cause that will result in avoiding evil is a logical contridiction.

 

[docrob57]

I think Insolified (sp) provides the only way out, but this creates the problem of God being the first cause. God must, by His righteous character, start with different causes to avoid evil if God can.

Insolified (sp) says that if God creates freewill creatures, then the possibility of creating the first cause that will result in avoiding evil is a logical contridiction.

I must be tired today, because nothing is making sense. God is the first cause of man's existence, but if He gave man a free will, and man chose evil, then God is not the cause of the evil. What am I missing here?

 

[Yorzhik]

I must be tired today, because nothing is making sense. God is the first cause of man's existence, but if He gave man a free will, and man chose evil, then God is not the cause of the evil. What am I missing here?

God being the first cause of man's existence is fine; Just as long as God cannot be certain that what He first causes will result in evil given that God is capable of creating a different set of initial causes.

Your choices are:

a) God could not, by logic, create initial causes that didn't result in evil. (Insolified)
b) God could have created different causes but being the author of moral evil is not inconsistant with God
c) God could not be exhaustively certain of the outcome of His initial causes

 

[docrob57]

God being the first cause of man's existence is fine; Just as long as God cannot be certain that what He first causes will result in evil given that God is capable of creating a different set of initial causes.

Your choices are:

a) God could not, by logic, create initial causes that didn't result in evil. (Insolified)
b) God could have created different causes but being the author of moral evil is not inconsistant with God
c) God could not be exhaustively certain of the outcome of His initial causes

Unfortunately, those aren't the only choices, and this is what the whole debate has been about thus far. Choice d would be God created man with free will and man chose evil and God knew that man would choose evil.

 

[Yorzhik]

Unfortunately, those aren't the only choices, and this is what the whole debate has been about thus far. Choice d would be God created man with free will and man chose evil and God knew that man would choose evil.

That would be exactly: "b)"

But if you have other choices, please put them forward.

 

[docrob57]

No, being the author of moral evil is inconsistent with God. God created Satan, does that make God the reason for Satan's evil?

 

[Phileo]

Could be. Or it could be that there is a beginning to existence.

'Ex nihilo, nihil fit' (out of nothing, nothing comes). If there is a beginning to existence, then God would have had to create himself out of nothing before he existed. Pretty tough situation, even for God.

 

[Clete]

No, being the author of moral evil is inconsistent with God. God created Satan, does that make God the reason for Satan's evil?

God created Lucifer not Satan. Lucifer turned himself into Satan, God just renamed him.

 

[docrob57]

God created Lucifer not Satan. Lucifer turned himself into Satan, God just renames him.

Welcome back to the discussion Clete! You are right, I stand corrected. So, have you been keeping up with this unofficial Battle Royale? We should perhaps name it Free-For-All I.

 

[Balder]

A moral problem is posed by perfect and absolute "foreknowledge." If God knew what Satan was going to do before ever making him, meaning he perfectly foreknew the problems he would cause and the eternal suffering he would have to endure, and God made him anyway, would God bear any moral responsibility? Think of it this way: If you and your spouse were planning on conceiving a baby, and an angel came and told you that if you attempted to conceive this evening you would be successful, but the baby you produced would freely make some disastrous choices that would hurt many people and lead to her own eternal and inescapable torment, would you go through with conceiving her?

 

[docrob57]

A moral problem is posed by perfect and absolute "foreknowledge." If God knew what Satan was going to do before ever making him, meaning he perfectly foreknew the problems he would cause and the eternal suffering he would have to endure, and God made him anyway, would God bear any moral responsibility? Think of it this way: If you and your spouse were planning on conceiving a baby, and an angel came and told you that if you attempted to conceive this evening you would be successful, but the baby you produced would freely make some disastrous choices that would hurt many people and lead to her own eternal and inescapable torment, would you go through with conceiving her?

Hmmm, this also is a good point which I will need to ponder for a while. The more I think I begin to grasp this stuff, the more ellusive it becomes!

 

[Clete]

Welcome back to the discussion Clete! You are right, I stand corrected. So, have you been keeping up with this unofficial Battle Royale? We should perhaps name it Free-For-All I.

I have been browsing it but not reading every post. I was super busy this last weekend and I've sort of burned myself out on the topic, plus the real Battle Royale has gotten under way plus I haven't felt like I had anything substantive to add to the discussion that I haven't already said a bagillion times already so I just bowed out.
It wasn't my intention to ignore anyone I just thought the discussion could get along without me for the time being.
But, of course, if there is any really pressing question that someone desires to have the correct answer too, just say so and I'll answer ASAP!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[docrob57]

I have been browsing it but not reading every post. I was super busy this last weekend and I've sort of burned myself out on the topic, plus the real Battle Royale has gotten under way plus I haven't felt like I had anything substantive to add to the discussion that I haven't already said a bagillion times already so I just bowed out.
It wasn't my intention to ignore anyone I just thought the discussion could get along without me for the time being.
But, of course, if there is any really pressing question that someone desires to have the correct answer too, just say so and I'll answer ASAP!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Glad you dropped in, but I'm afraid if someone wants the correct answer, they will have to ask me!