What is Free Will?
- Thread starter docrob57
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Balder
New member
Clete,
Are you suggesting that identical causes could lead to totally different effects, or even opposite effects? If so, I don't see how you could make that argument and still argue for a causal relationship between them. Perhaps if you could take this out of formulas and give an example, your argument might be clearer (to me, at least).
Are you suggesting that identical causes could lead to totally different effects, or even opposite effects? If so, I don't see how you could make that argument and still argue for a causal relationship between them. Perhaps if you could take this out of formulas and give an example, your argument might be clearer (to me, at least).
I don't know how to desribe except to say that when I decide to do something I could have decided not do to it. If the later is not possible and all the events that led up to the decision were not fully compatible with my decision not to do it then my decision to do it was not free.
docrob57 said:
Or the exact mechanism by which we make our choices is not known. Randomness is not an option for the same reason that not having a free will in not an option.
Freedom of the will is a necessary condition of morality, of right and wrong and all that implies. Thus if God is just we MUST have a free will. No other conclusion is possible.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete said:
I agree. I didn't used to, but I have come to agree with your position. However, again, that is not the issue here. We need to get to the mechanism by which choices are made without substituting "free will" on the right side of the equation. Otherwise we simply have a tautology:
free will choice = free will
Maybe freewill is what it is.
Maybe freewill is an un-distilable mechanism.
Maybe freewill is an un-distilable mechanism.
justchristian
New member
If we assume we have free will we must then assume God has free will as well right? I am not saying God can choose evil, but that he can choose between an apple and an orange at any given moment. If that choice was God's prior to his creation of any other cause then we can assume that will acts, and is capable of acting, independant of cause. Perhaps that is part of being made in the image of God. That which was able to cause prior to any other cause is manifest in us. Independant of any other cause we can make a choice. We can choose to become the first cause in a string of events in the universe. The nature of the will making the choice independant of other cause, not being random, must then be rooted internally. And that's where I get stuck. If it's internal, and what is internal is not determined by God, then perhaps it was intially random? God knew in creating free wills some would internally choose him while others would reject him. That cost was acceptable for the reward of relationship with independant wills. Now that we are all independant causes at our root we are capable of affecting other causes (wills), changing them. God works through those who choose him to change those who reject him so all may come to Him. When we hinder God working through us we hinder that work of bringing all to him. I more than suspect some of this is off the wall but that was my train of thought. Perhaps some of it inspired some further insight?
seekinganswers
New member
Hey Clete,
Where is your response? I've been waiting and so far you have been silent. Thanks for your kind note, though. I guess I will keep on waiting.
Grace and Peace,
Michael
Where is your response? I've been waiting and so far you have been silent. Thanks for your kind note, though. I guess I will keep on waiting.
Grace and Peace,
Michael
Balder
New member
Perhaps it would be helpful just to consider what "will" is, before discussing whether or not it is truly free, or what is meant by "free."
What is the function and mechanism of will? Rather than exploring this theoretically or philosophically, it might also be helpful to consider it phenomenologically. What is a moment of "willing" something like? What comprises such an act? Does it appear bounded in any way? Does will emerge or act from within the context of a network of reasons, or does it transcend "reasons" in some way?
There may be other relevant questions, but that's a start.
What is the function and mechanism of will? Rather than exploring this theoretically or philosophically, it might also be helpful to consider it phenomenologically. What is a moment of "willing" something like? What comprises such an act? Does it appear bounded in any way? Does will emerge or act from within the context of a network of reasons, or does it transcend "reasons" in some way?
There may be other relevant questions, but that's a start.
Clete said:
Yes. But let's move to a different but related topic first.
I know that you argue that foreknowledge precludes free will. I still don't agree on that one, and it is related to the free will topic, at least the point that I am trying to get to.
Let's start by looking backward. Monday, you made a free will choice to watch CSI Miami. You told me about it yesterday and I remember it today. Now, at this point, you can't go back and change the choice, but at the time you made it it was free. Does my knowledge of what you did in any way impact your freedom?
Did I owe you a response?seekinganswers said:
If so I've forgoten! Can you tell me which post it is that I need to respond too? It certainly wasn't my intention to ignore you.
I'm out of time for today but if you'll give me a post # or a link to it, I'll respond to it before I respond to anything else (assuming time constraints don't demand otherwise).
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete said:Did I owe you a response?
If so I've forgoten! Can you tell me which post it is that I need to respond too? It certainly wasn't my intention to ignore you.
I'm out of time for today but if you'll give me a post # or a link to it, I'll respond to it before I respond to anything else (assuming time constraints don't demand otherwise).
Resting in Him,
Clete
I'm out of time too. Goodnight all.
I disagree.docrob57 said:
Some things cannot be broken down or dissected.
They are what they are.
justchristian
New member
What else is what it is and can't be broken down further?
justchristian said:
- The soul
- The human spirit
- Blue
- Yellow
No not really.Balder said:
I am simply saying that some things cannot be broken down into smaller items.
Colors may have been a bad example.
Yet I think my first two examples were good ones.