What is faith?

[God's Truth]

I think this is a good summary of the whole duty of man.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

I DO SQUIRM at the word "obey".

I was born wanting to do my own thing.
"Obedience" is totally contrary to my nature.

To subject yourself to anything or anyone is the greatest sacrifice a person can make, even when that sacrifice is to God.

Do you hate what is evil?

If you obey God and hate what is evil, then you will gladly sacrifice your body to God.

 

[iouae]

People who struggle with the word "No!" are those who have the hardest time.

God created a world where folks would hit boundaries and have to learn the meaning of the word "No".

God gave us parents to learn obedience.

If our parents will not teach us obedience, then prison will.

If prison will not teach us obedience then nature will.
Billions of things in nature are screaming at us "NO!".
The edge of a cliff is screaming at us "No, don't come closer".
A hot stove is shouting "Don't touch me".

God built a world that would naturally teach us obedience, so that we learn we cannot have our own will. This helps us learn to be subject to God ultimately.

 

[glorydaz]

I have learned something in this thread and that is that people seem to have a natural aversion and maybe even a repulsion toward one simple little word: OBEY. Watching people squirm over nothing more than this simple little word, OBEY, has been as enlightening as it has been amusing. I truly believe that in the recesses of the mind that really is all this is, that is, a natural animosity toward the word OBEY. :crackup:

Not at all. There is no "aversion" to obedience, but there is, and should be, an aversion to boasting in our own obedience. There is nothing wrong with obeying....except when man claims it's his own obedience that saves him. Man loves nothing more than to boast in himself....as God's untruth makes abundantly clear. Salvation is a gift...not of ourselves. And it's through the obedience of ONE that we are made righteous.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

 

[God's Truth]

Not at all. There is no "aversion" to obedience, but there is, and should be, an aversion to boasting in our own obedience. There is nothing wrong with obeying....except when man claims it's his own obedience that saves him. Man loves nothing more than to boast in himself....as God's untruth makes abundantly clear. Salvation is a gift...not of ourselves. And it's through the obedience of ONE that we are made righteous.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

It isn't shameful to preach obedience to Christ; and it isn't shameful to say you obey.

Paul doesn't have a problem with boasting.

Paul says he wants us to boast in each other.

For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. See 2 Corinthians 1:13,14.

Paul shows us we can boast in ourselves.

2 Corinthians 1:12 Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God's grace.


2 Corinthians 7:14 I had boasted to him about you, and you have not embarrassed me. But just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting about you to Titus has proved to be true as well.


1 Thessalonians 2:10
You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.


2 Corinthians 12:6
Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth.


Acts 23:1
Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day."


1 Corinthians 9:15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast.

 

[glorydaz]

People who struggle with the word "No!" are those who have the hardest time.

God created a world where folks would hit boundaries and have to learn the meaning of the word "No".

God gave us parents to learn obedience.

If our parents will not teach us obedience, then prison will.

If prison will not teach us obedience then nature will.
Billions of things in nature are screaming at us "NO!".
The edge of a cliff is screaming at us "No, don't come closer".
A hot stove is shouting "Don't touch me".

God built a world that would naturally teach us obedience, so that we learn we cannot have our own will. This helps us learn to be subject to God ultimately.

Cool....but by one's own efforts there will always be failure.


Only when we are created IN CHRIST JESUS, as new creatures, will we become HIS workmanship and He will perform His good work in us. HE WILL PERFORM IT.... Trust HIM, not yourself, and He will do it.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

 

[iouae]

Do you hate what is evil?

If you obey God and hate what is evil, then you will gladly sacrifice your body to God.

I don't consider it a light or small thing to subject oneself to God FOREVER.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

I would add this as a corollary...
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his God.

(And by "lay down his life" I mean as a living sacrifice by living as obedient servants to God).

 

[God's Truth]

I don't consider it a light or small thing to subject oneself to God FOREVER.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

I would add this as a corollary...
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his God.

(And by "lay down his life" I mean as a living sacrifice by living as obedient servants to God).

It is easy to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, if you hate what is evil.

However, it might not be so easy to actually die for another.

 

[glorydaz]

It isn't shameful to preach obedience to Christ; and it isn't shameful to say you obey.

Paul doesn't have a problem with boasting.

Paul says he wants us to boast in each other.



Paul shows us we can boast in ourselves.

Yes, I've seen how you love to make Paul out to be a liar by claiming he is contradicting himself. You read your own understanding into so many verses in order to excuse your own boasting. Paul never once boasts that his obedience saves or keeps him saved. Never once.

On the contrary ....we are justified by faith, and boasting is EXCLUDED.

Romans 3:26-28
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.​

Lest any man should boast.....that in the ages to come all glory will go to God and NONE to man for the gift of salvation.

Eph. 2:7-9 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

 

[iouae]

Cool....but by one's own efforts there will always be failure.


Only when we are created IN CHRIST JESUS, as new creatures, will we become HIS workmanship and He will perform His good work in us. HE WILL PERFORM IT.... Trust HIM, not yourself, and He will do it.

It is like having power steering. When Christ is behind you, you can feel the difference.

 

[freelight]

The yoga of the Spirit......

The yoga of the Spirit......

I think this is a good summary of the whole duty of man.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Sure, this was the preacher's view of 'God' and sense of 'duty', but we can impersonalize this concept of 'God', and call it the laws of nature and/or the laws of Spirit. If we walk in harmony with these universal laws,...then all goes well with us because there is no conflict or transgression of these laws. It is only when we strive against the law of God that we suffer the consequence of transgressing such laws. Its not a personal 'God' somewhere in heaven that is punishing us, for we reap what we sow, according to the law of karma (seed-time/harvest, action/consequence). Therefore, the 'duty' of man is to love God and live in harmony with his laws, following His ways, living in harmony with universal truths and principles.

I DO SQUIRM at the word "obey".

Its just a 'word', subject to translation

I was born wanting to do my own thing.
"Obedience" is totally contrary to my nature.

I guess it depends on what "your own thing" is, and what law or principle you are honoring by your thought, word and actions. The universal law shows that actions carry consequence, for so is the law. If you discover that following your own true will, IS the same as following divine will, then you recognize your own essential nature and will is not different or separate from Gods. In this unity of Spirit you can say with Jesus "not my will, but thine be done"...and you will rejoice to know true your will IS God's will, since it is the life-principle and will itself having the pre-eminence over the ego's desire and vain-glory.

You then naturally will to do His will (because the inspiration of love and light predominates),...and this becomes the law that you live by, and willingly OBEY. - this 'obedience' is not slavish, coerced or contrived,...it flows out of the heart of love. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the supreme law itself....and only 'God' who is LOVE can fulfill the law in you....as you.

You are that (love personified).

To subject yourself to anything or anyone is the greatest sacrifice a person can make, even when that sacrifice is to God.

Yes, it is the sacrifice of one's total being to God, an immersion into Spirit. It would appear that Jesus taught and lived this law of sacrifice, but it was the surrender of his own temple and 'ego' to the divine will. Therefore, from a relational point of view,...our greatest joy and service to God is living in continual-communion with his life-giving and directing Spirit, for such is the law of the Spirit of life, spoken of by Paul, he using his own 'terms' to describe universal law by way of being "in Christ".

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, I've seen how you love to make Paul out to be a liar by claiming he is contradicting himself.

You are the one who claims that.

You read your own understanding into so many verses in order to excuse your own boasting. Paul never once boasts that his obedience saves or keeps him saved. Never once.

Paul boasts in what he did.

Paul also warns us to obey.

1 Corinthians 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

On the contrary ....we are justified by faith, and boasting is EXCLUDED.

Romans 3:26-28
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.​

Lest any man should boast.....that in the ages to come all glory will go to God and NONE to man for the gift of salvation.

Eph. 2:7-9 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

The works the Jews used to do and boasted in are the ceremonial works.

Paul is speaking about the ceremonial works.

Paul would not ever speak against obeying God.


Galatians 6:13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh.


Philippians 3:3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh--

 

[daqq]

Not at all. There is no "aversion" to obedience, but there is, and should be, an aversion to boasting in our own obedience. There is nothing wrong with obeying....except when man claims it's his own obedience that saves him. Man loves nothing more than to boast in himself....as God's untruth makes abundantly clear. Salvation is a gift...not of ourselves. And it's through the obedience of ONE that we are made righteous.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
​

With Torah of the mind which is the Torah of Elohim, (Mount Horeb) my obedience is really not all that difficult. However it is the members of the household which can become quite disobedient. Therefore the Torah of Sinai must be laid out and leveled against them. And therefore, like Paul, I pummel my body, (its "members") into submission; for each and every disciple of Yeshua is made a porter of the door of the house and a steward, (oikonomos) while the House Master is likened as if "away in a far journey", (Mark 13:34) and every steward is given a dispensation-economy-stewardship, (oikonomia) to preach and teach the gospel in all of his or her house and land, yea, even all of his or her own known "world". All seven of my congregations therefore know that I can either show up with love or I can come with a rod of iron: they know I will pluck them out or cut them off in the doctrine of Yeshua, (the kingdom of Elohim is within you).

 

[iouae]

It would appear that Jesus taught and lived this law of sacrifice, but it was the surrender of his own temple and 'ego' to the divine will.

Even Jesus sweated blood over the whole "Not my will but Thine be done" thing.
Makes me feel not so alone.

 

[iouae]

Paul boasts in what he did.

I think Paul had a fairly healthy self-esteem

And that is why he was given a thorn in his flesh.


2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

 

[iouae]

Likewise Moses had a fairly healthy self esteem.

"Must WE bring water out of this rock?" Num 20:10

Who is this "WE"? There is only God.

So to humble Moses, he was not allowed to enter the promised land.

 

[God's Truth]

I think Paul had a fairly healthy self-esteem

And that is why he was given a thorn in his flesh.


2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

However, Paul did not do wrong to preach obedience to Christ, and boast that he did. He also boasted in others obedience.

It is never a shame to obey Jesus.

Gorydazed tries to shame me for saying I obey Jesus.

Paul's thorn in the flesh was not so that he does not boast in his obedience.

 

[God's Truth]

Likewise Moses had a fairly healthy self esteem.

"Must WE bring water out of this rock?" Num 20:10

Who is this "WE"? There is only God.

So to humble Moses, he was not allowed to enter the promised land.

It was not because Moses boasted in obeying God. Moses didn't obey that is why he didn't enter the promised land.

 

[iouae]

However, Paul did not do wrong to preach obedience to Christ, and boast that he did. He also boasted in others obedience.

It is never a shame to obey Jesus.

Gorydazed tries to shame me for saying I obey Jesus.

Paul's thorn in the flesh was not so that he does not boast in his obedience.

I agree with you that Paul boasted.

I think most who give their testimonies boast in a similar way.

Paul was sometimes forced to "boast" or give his credentials, because false teachers would come and corrupt the churches he had founded. He would then try to justify his authority to correct them.

Paul had more to "boast" of than any other Apostle. He was beaten more often, shipwrecked more often.... etc.

So I do agree with your post except I do feel the thorn was given so that he would not think of himself more highly than he should. After all, Paul would have continued killing Christians had not Jesus personally intervened. Paul could not be allowed to forget that IT IS ALL JESUS. The thorn reminded him.

 

[iouae]

It was not because Moses boasted in obeying God. Moses didn't obey that is why he didn't enter the promised land.

I don't believe it was because he disobeyed God that God excluded him.

After all Moses LITERALLY broke the 10 commandments.

 

[God's Truth]

I agree with you that Paul boasted.

I think most who give their testimonies boast in a similar way.

Paul was sometimes forced to "boast" or give his credentials, because false teachers would come and corrupt the churches he had founded. He would then try to justify his authority to correct them.

Paul had more to "boast" of than any other Apostle. He was beaten more often, shipwrecked more often.... etc.

So I do agree with your post except I do feel the thorn was given so that he would not think of himself more highly than he should. After all, Paul would have continued killing Christians had not Jesus personally intervened. Paul could not be allowed to forget that IT IS ALL JESUS. The thorn reminded him.

I don't see the thorn the same way you do. I am glad that you agree about the boasting.