What is faith?

[iouae]

No.

The old law was NOT based on faith.

There were Jews who had faith and obeyed the old law, but there was also Jews who did NOT have faith and obeyed the old law.

Faith was not a requirement, but it is what was required when Jesus came. It is what makes the difference between life and death.

A Jew could obey the old law but not have faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

When Jesus came to earth, the Jews who did not have faith were cut off and hardened. The Jews who had faith in God before Jesus came, they recognized Jesus' words as the words from God, and they were saved.

I think its quite wrong to say us Christians invented faith.

All people have faith, for instance that when they switch the switch, the light will come on, or that when I hit "Submit Reply" this will go to you.

I think it took a lot of faith to keep the OT.
First one had to believe in a God who blessed or cursed one according to Deut 28.
One had to fear Him enough to not worship other gods.
One had to fear Him enough to go keep Feasts in Jerusalem.
One had to fear Him enough to bring your tithe. etc.

Paul's only point is that without faith in JESUS (rather than OT works) there is no salvation.

The whole theme of Paul is trust the LORD not the LAW.
The stumbling block became that the OT was so complete a religion, the Israelites did not feel they needed another.

 

[God's Truth]

I think its quite wrong to say us Christians invented faith.

Are you the one who likes to add things that are not there?
Where did I say Christians invented faith?
I said what the New Testament scripture said, and that is that the old law was not based on faith.
Don't lean to the left or to the right of God's Word.

All people have faith, for instance that when they switch the switch, the light will come on, or that when I hit "Submit Reply" this will go to you.

What in the world does that have to do with God's written Word?

I think it took a lot of faith to keep the OT.
First one had to believe in a God who blessed or cursed one according to Deut 28.
One had to fear Him enough to not worship other gods.
One had to fear Him enough to go keep Feasts in Jerusalem.
One had to fear Him enough to bring your tithe. etc.

Paul's only point is that without faith in JESUS (rather than OT works) there is no salvation.

The whole theme of Paul is trust the LORD not the LAW.
The stumbling block became that the OT was so complete a religion, the Israelites did not feel they needed another.

Believe God and stop going by your imagination.

The devil is the prince of the air.

Imaginations are like air.

 

[iouae]

Where did I say Christians invented faith?
I said what the New Testament scripture said, and that is that the old law was not based on faith.

Yes, and you quoted Gal 3:12 to prove your point.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Do you think the Pharisees of Christ's day did not have faith that they were righteous?

Problem was, they they were righteous in their own eyes because they kept the law so strictly.

Problem is, that Christ came along and told them that their sacrifices such as on atonement did not count. Only faith in Him could remove sin.

Now they had to choose between faith in their old religion (which God gave them, and which they believed in) and the upgrade.

Like some of us prefer earlier versions of Windows, they took one look at the upgrade (Christianity) and rejected it for their older, more comfortable, works based, do-not-need-Christ faith.

 

[Ian Roz]

Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

[God's Truth]

Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

Martin Luther King, Jr?

Why don't you quote the written Word of God?

Why do you quote a man who committed adultery as a way of life?

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, and you quoted Gal 3:12 to prove your point.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Do you think the Pharisees of Christ's day did not have faith that they were righteous?

They did not have faith and they were not righteous.

Problem was, they they were righteous in their own eyes because they kept the law so strictly.

You are making that up.

Jesus says they did not practice what they preached.

Do you need it explained to you what that means?

The scriptures say the Pharisees only spoke of the things they did right but did not repent of their sins.

Problem is, that Christ came along and told them that their sacrifices such as on atonement did not count. Only faith in Him could remove sin.

Nowhere is that said in the Bible.

You are the one who strays from the written Word.

Now they had to choose between faith in their old religion (which God gave them, and which they believed in) and the upgrade.

No such thing. That is not from the Word of God.

Like some of us prefer earlier versions of Windows, they took one look at the upgrade (Christianity) and rejected it for their older, more comfortable, works based, do-not-need-Christ faith.

You contradict yourself. You said they had faith, and then you said they rejected faith. You need to get it straight.

Do not lean to the left or to the right of God's Word.

 

[iouae]

Did the Pharisees of Christ's day have faith?
Did Paul, as a Pharisee before he was converted, have faith?
Do the jihadist Muslims of today have faith when they shout "Allahu Akbar" before flying their hijacked planes into buildings?
Do evolutionists have faith in evolution as an explanation for todays flora and fauna? Most evolutionists I have met are sincere in their beliefs.

I say "yes". All of the above do have genuine faith.
Faith is everywhere. Every action all the time is a demonstration of faith. When I hit the "a" key, if I got any letter other than "a" I would be dumbfounded. I have faith in every appliance to do as its told and not show creativity.

So I reiterate, Paul was not criticising the Pharisees for their faith PER SE.
Paul was saying that the things they had faith in were the wrong things.

Paul lists all the things he had confidence in before he placed his confidence in Christ.

Phil 3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Paul had "trust in the flesh". This included being well born as one of God's chosen people, having been circumcised, and doing good works.

Problem is, anything we do without Christ at the centre is unprofitable.

It seems like God did too good a job when He gave the Old Covenant. Folks liked it too much to change to the New Covenant. It became a stumbling block. Although many Jews did convert, as a rule, Gentiles who had nothing except vain idols found it easier to accept Jesus, than Jews did.

All Paul's dialogues on the law say the same thing.
It was THE BIG ISSUE of Paul's day.

We have to believe in Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Did the Pharisees of Christ's day have faith?
Did Paul, as a Pharisee before he was converted, have faith?

I have already answered you but I will answer again.

The Pharisees did not have faith in God, and that is why they were cut off.

Romans 11:20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.


That was before Jesus started his earthly ministry.

Do the jihadist Muslims of today have faith when they shout "Allahu Akbar" before flying their hijacked planes into buildings?
Do evolutionists have faith in evolution as an explanation for todays flora and fauna? Most evolutionists I have met are sincere in their beliefs.

Do you want to discuss the Holy Bible, or do you want to speak about Muslims and evolutionists?

There might be some Muslims who have faith in the god they believe in; and if they could hear the truth about God, they might have faith in the message that saves. However, it does not take faith to believe in the Islamic religion, for it is not based on faith, just as the old law is not based on faith.

I say "yes". All of the above do have genuine faith.

You have to believe what is written. God's wisdom is what is in the Holy Bible.

Faith is everywhere. Every action all the time is a demonstration of faith. When I hit the "a" key, if I got any letter other than "a" I would be dumbfounded. I have faith in every appliance to do as its told and not show creativity.

Let's not go by your analogies.

So I reiterate, Paul was not criticising the Pharisees for their faith PER SE.
Paul was saying that the things they had faith in were the wrong things.

Paul lists all the things he had confidence in before he placed his confidence in Christ.

Phil 3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Paul had "trust in the flesh". This included being well born as one of God's chosen people, having been circumcised, and doing good works.

You misunderstand Paul.

Paul put confidence is the flesh...that is about the ceremonial works.

The Jews used to have to clean themselves. They did certain works as commanded by God to clean themselves.

No one has to do works to clean themselves anymore. We only have to believe that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing.

Problem is, anything we do without Christ at the centre is unprofitable.

It seems like God did too good a job when He gave the Old Covenant. Folks liked it too much to change to the New Covenant. It became a stumbling block. Although many Jews did convert, as a rule, Gentiles who had nothing except vain idols found it easier to accept Jesus, than Jews did.

All Paul's dialogues on the law say the same thing.
It was THE BIG ISSUE of Paul's day.

We have to believe in Jesus.

It isn't easier for one race over another.

There were Jews who had faith and obeyed the old law, and there were Jews who did NOT have faith and obeyed the old law.

The Jews who had faith were the lost sheep of Israel and those are the people Jesus came for first. Those Jews already belonged to God. They were God's, but now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's. God gave them to Jesus. Jesus said he would not lose one that God gave him.

John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.


The Jews who did NOT have faith before Jesus came, they were cut off and hardened, so that when Jesus spoke, they could not hear and understand. Jesus came for those who already belonged to God.


Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.

Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU



When Jesus was crucified, then ALL could come to him to be saved; even the Jews who did not have faith before.

 

[iouae]

The Pharisees did not have faith in God, and that is why they were cut off.

Romans 11:20 But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.

Unbelief in Jesus. They believed strongly in their own righteousness.

Do you want to discuss the Holy Bible, or do you want to speak about Muslims and evolutionists?

My point is that faith is ubiquitous.
Faith in the right person Jesus is not.

There might be some Muslims who have faith in the god they believe in;

Now you have come round to my point. Thank you.

However, it does not take faith to believe in the Islamic religion, for it is not based on faith, just as the old law is not based on faith.

That is ABSOLUTELY not so!!!
All religions believe with the same strength of faith as you do.
Their faith is just misplaced.
Richard Dawkins has as much faith as you have.

You have to believe what is written. God's wisdom is what is in the Holy Bible.

Yes Mom

Let's not go by your analogies.

Jesus used analogies.

You misunderstand Paul.

Everyone misunderstands Paul, even Peter.

Paul put confidence is the flesh...that is about the ceremonial works.

The Jews used to have to clean themselves. They did certain works as commanded by God to clean themselves.

Here you show that you understand Paul perfectly.

No one has to do works to clean themselves anymore. We only have to believe that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing.

Now you go too far.
We must repent.
We must be baptised.
We must take communion.
We must walk in newness of life.
Faith without works is dead.

There were Jews who had faith and obeyed the old law, and there were Jews who did NOT have faith and obeyed the old law.

The Jews who had faith were the lost sheep of Israel and those are the people Jesus came for first. Those Jews already belonged to God. They were God's, but now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's. God gave them to Jesus. Jesus said he would not lose one that God gave him.

John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

Again, you have that perfectly correct. Let us never forget the common Jews who flocked to hear Jesus, while the few Pharisees who had a vested interest in the system, rejected Him.

The Jews who did NOT have faith before Jesus came, they were cut off and hardened, so that when Jesus spoke, they could not hear and understand. Jesus came for those who already belonged to God.

Here you [almost] contradict yourself.
Both groups of Jews had faith to start.
One lot were prepared to transfer their faith to Jesus.
The other group preferred to have faith in "the system" of OT works.

Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.

Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU...

Here Christ is bemoaning all those like Paul before conversion who WERE ZEALOUS for the OT religion, which God after all gave them.
It was God who created a competing religion in the form of the Old Covenant, and now God found this an obstacle to belief in the NC.

When Jesus was crucified, then ALL could come to him to be saved; even the Jews who did not have faith before.

Again, they had faith, but in the wrong thing.

 

[God's Truth]

Unbelief in Jesus. They believed strongly in their own righteousness.

They were cut off because of unbelief before Jesus started his earthly ministry.

My point is that faith is ubiquitous.
Faith in the right person Jesus is not.

I do not know what your point is.

Now you have come round to my point. Thank you.

That is ABSOLUTELY not so!!!
All religions believe with the same strength of faith as you do.
Their faith is just misplaced.
Richard Dawkins has as much faith as you have.

The written Word of God says different.

Jesus used analogies.

Let’s use Jesus’ and not yours.

Everyone misunderstands Paul, even Peter.

Peter did not misunderstand Paul. Don’t you think you should be more careful in what you claim?

Here you show that you understand Paul perfectly.

Now you go too far.
We must repent.

Pay better attention, for I said we have to repent.

We must be baptised.
We must take communion.
We must walk in newness of life.
Faith without works is dead.

I said we have to obey Jesus.
What do you think communion is?

Here you [almost] contradict yourself.
Both groups of Jews had faith to start.
One lot were prepared to transfer their faith to Jesus.
The other group preferred to have faith in "the system" of OT works.

You are wrong, for the scripture plainly says those without faith were cut off.

Here Christ is bemoaning all those like Paul before conversion who WERE ZEALOUS for the OT religion, which God after all gave them.
It was God who created a competing religion in the form of the Old Covenant, and now God found this an obstacle to belief in the NC.

Nonsense.
God gave the ceremonial works so that the people could clean themselves just to go to the tent, and later the temples to worship Him.
God did not like it that a Jew could sin, and then give a sin offering, but not really be sorry.

Again, they had faith, but in the wrong thing.

You are just going to have to believe the scripture, son.


Romans 11:20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
They were cut off because they did not have faith.

 

[iouae]

God's Truth

I am going to leave it at what we agree on.

All need faith IN JESUS to be saved.

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth

I am going to leave it at what we agree on.

All need faith IN JESUS to be saved.

The Jews who did not have faith before Jesus came were cut off and hardened.

 

[RBBI]

To reply to the original question.....faith is believing what He said and acting upon it. The evidence of faith is the appearance of what was hoped for, but not seen initially. For example, I believed Him when He said He healed the sick and was going to heal me, and I was healed (of terminal cancer). Faith is believing what He said and acting upon it, in spite of all the circumstances, such as doctor's reports, and pain and even hemorrhaging. Whose report shall we believe? We shall believe the report of the Lord. Peace

 

[iouae]

To reply to the original question.....faith is believing what He said and acting upon it. The evidence of faith is the appearance of what was hoped for, but not seen initially. For example, I believed Him when He said He healed the sick and was going to heal me, and I was healed (of terminal cancer). Faith is believing what He said and acting upon it, in spite of all the circumstances, such as doctor's reports, and pain and even hemorrhaging. Whose report shall we believe? We shall believe the report of the Lord. Peace

Wow! That is quite a story of faith.

Would you say there is always an element of intimacy between the believer and God when it is true faith? I.e. faith is relational?

 

[OCTOBER23]

IOU,

LOVE THE LORD GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND MIND AND BEING.

Jeremiah 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD:

and they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Psalms 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psalms 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Psalms 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Psalms 119:58 I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.
Psalms 119:69 The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.
Psalms 119:145 KOPH. I cried with my whole heart; hear me, O LORD: I will keep thy statutes.
Psalms 138:1 «*A Psalm of David.*» I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.

Jeremiah 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Jeremiah 32:41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

 

[RBBI]

Wow! That is quite a story of faith.

Would you say there is always an element of intimacy between the believer and God when it is true faith? I.e. faith is relational?

No, but it helps. Think of all the ones He appeared to in the Word that didn't really know Him yet. He is sovereign and He does what He wants when He wants with who He wants.

The important thing about true faith that leads to healing is receiving a PERSONAL Word from Him about whatever it is, so that does require relationship or Him breaking through, one or the other. People refuse their kids medical treatment and they die, which we see in the news every so often. Believing in the written Word is a start, but you can't stand on it alone. We are told this as no man can live on bread (letter) alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of HaShem. Since He is Spirit, His words are spirit and life. We must obtain the Spirit breathed word for ourselves, and then THAT is what we stand on and are tested on.

This summer I was told I was diabetic. My doctor had run one of those blood tests that goes back 3 months. He ordered me meds for it, which I refused to take, and told him I was not diabetic. I told him right before the blood test he took, I had been led of the Lord to do a 14 day fast. The first 7 were bread and water, the last 7 were water only. I pointed out to him that no diabetic could have done that without landing in the hospital, at the very least. He didn't believe me, obviously, and told me he was drawing it again 3 months from the last time, but I needed to take my meds for it. Again, I refused. He drew it, and lo and behold, no diabetes. He said he didn't believe it at first, thought it was a lab mix up, because he KNOWS I was diabetic. Whether I was or whether I wasn't, I'm not now because the Lord took care of it, and gave an unbelieving doctor something to think about. Being healed is not just for us, but for unbelievers as well. Peace

 

[iouae]

No, but it helps. Think of all the ones He appeared to in the Word that didn't really know Him yet. He is sovereign and He does what He wants when He wants with who He wants.

The important thing about true faith that leads to healing is receiving a PERSONAL Word from Him about whatever it is, so that does require relationship or Him breaking through, one or the other. People refuse their kids medical treatment and they die, which we see in the news every so often. Believing in the written Word is a start, but you can't stand on it alone. We are told this as no man can live on bread (letter) alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of HaShem. Since He is Spirit, His words are spirit and life. We must obtain the Spirit breathed word for ourselves, and then THAT is what we stand on and are tested on.

This summer I was told I was diabetic. My doctor had run one of those blood tests that goes back 3 months. He ordered me meds for it, which I refused to take, and told him I was not diabetic. I told him right before the blood test he took, I had been led of the Lord to do a 14 day fast. The first 7 were bread and water, the last 7 were water only. I pointed out to him that no diabetic could have done that without landing in the hospital, at the very least. He didn't believe me, obviously, and told me he was drawing it again 3 months from the last time, but I needed to take my meds for it. Again, I refused. He drew it, and lo and behold, no diabetes. He said he didn't believe it at first, thought it was a lab mix up, because he KNOWS I was diabetic. Whether I was or whether I wasn't, I'm not now because the Lord took care of it, and gave an unbelieving doctor something to think about. Being healed is not just for us, but for unbelievers as well. Peace

Would you say that different people have areas where they are strong in faith, but could have other areas where they are weak in faith?

Maybe that would be experience related. You seem to have faith to be healed because you have been in the past.

Another person may have faith to be delivered from an addiction since they were in the past, but may not have the same faith to be healed etc.

 

[RBBI]

Would you say that different people have areas where they are strong in faith, but could have other areas where they are weak in faith?

Maybe that would be experience related. You seem to have faith to be healed because you have been in the past.

Another person may have faith to be delivered from an addiction since they were in the past, but may not have the same faith to be healed etc.

Absolutely. We are all given things to overcome. An army that has never been in battle is weak and untested. More than anything else, I'd say my area has been to overcome sicknesses. And because we are not just overcoming for ourselves but for others, I can pray without question for the healing of others, and have seen them instantly healed, WHEN THE LORD LEADS, but let me pray for addictions and unless the Lord specifically told me something for them, my faith would not be useful to them much because I have not overcome the same things.

We are being built up to BE that which every joint supplieth, and just as every joint in the physical body is not the same, neither is every joint in the spiritual. Peace

 

[Ben Masada]

God's Truth

I am going to leave it at what we agree on.

All need faith IN JESUS to be saved.

Saved from what if I may ask?

 

[Ben Masada]

Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

The point though is that we must take that first step to prove that we have faith because, to claim faith without taking that first step proves only that faith is as dead as a body without the breath of life. (James 2:26)