Oh, brother!
You are making this way too complicated.
Let me ask the question another way...
Why is it wrong to murder? (or to commit any other sin for that matter)
What does God's Holy Law Demand?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Oh, brother!
You are making this way too complicated.
Let me ask the question another way...
Why is it wrong to murder? (or to commit any other sin for that matter)
I can't tell what you meant by this post. Are you agreeing with me or making fun of me? :idunno:
I meant every word of it, as did Paul.
God nailed the law to the cross.
And no, you're wrong anyway. Just because God is eternal (i.e. He has always existed) does not mean that everything He does has always existed or that it never changes.
It was not immoral or wrong in any respect to eat shell fish or to pick up sticks on the Sabbath before God commanded Israel not to do those things and then it was only wrong for Jews to do it. It has never been wrong for a Gentile to eat lobster or ham and it isn't wrong for a person of Jewish decent to do it now.
Resting in Him,
Clete
JonahofAkron
New member
First of all, no. He did not nail the law to the cross. He nailed our debt to the cross. Clearly, you are not understanding 'certificate of debt' or 'handwriting of ordinances' or 'charge of legal indebtedness' in the appropriate way.
Secondly, I'm not wrong. The standard that He utilizes in the Law must be eternal; if He changed the definition of sin from one period to the next, not only would He be inconsistent, but it would make canceling all debt from sin impossible.
Third, let's have you go ahead and provide scripture for any assertion that those claiming to be Israel (Gentile or natural born) don't have to follow the commands. Its part of the deal, man.
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I believe because God says so. But you don't need to know God said so to know it is wrong. God has many ways of getting our attention.
Wonderful. Since the NT defines sin as the transgression of the law that means there has been no sin since then.
Good thinking.
:kookoo:
JonahofAkron
New member
Epoisses
New member
Yes, sin is a violation of faith and love you ignorant woman. Sit in silence and speak no further.
What applies to unbelievers does not apply to believers. Remember, God sees those that are his as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.
Yes, He did. This I know, because the Bible tells me so...
Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
The context is clear. No need to be some sort of expert. All you have to do is read it. Paul is referencing the law, making repeated references to things like circumcision and forbidden foods etc.
Repeating yourself, which you're about to do, doesn't help the fact that I proved that you were wrong. You can't just ignore an argument, repeat your position and think you've accomplished something other than having wasted everyone's time.
Saying it doesn't make it so. The fact is, at one time it was forbidden to execute murderers, then it became immoral not to. At one time, "every moving thing that lives" could be eaten, then, for certain people, certain animals were "unclean" and could not be eaten, and now its back to eat what you want. At one time there was no law, then the law was required, now there is no law again (for righteousness sake). At one time reproducing with close relatives was fine, now its immoral (both for good reason). There are hundreds of things that were immoral at one time and now are not or vise versa.
That will be the last time I repeat myself. Either respond to the argument or I'll know that you cannot.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
Try at least reading the New Testament through at least once before you get on this website and be condescending toward those of us who have actually put the time in required to know what we're talking about.
Resting in Him,
Clete
So what if God said that it was alright to murder people if they make your really really mad?
Would that make murder good or would it make God evil?
There is NO third option here Jacob.
This might feel like I'm wasting your time here but I promise I am not. There are several here who understand what I'm doing intuitively. You'll see it too, just be patient.
Resting in Him,
Clete
There used to be a poster here on TOL named Sozo who made that exact argument and did so with eloquence and passion that you couldn't muster if your life depended on it. Don't be so quick to make fun of things you know nothing about.
I spent many many hours arguing against him but not because he was entirely wrong but because nearly no one who heard him say the thing he was saying, or read his posts, would get the point. The reason they wouldn't is because very few people understand the word sin to mean "a transgression of the law". The word sin, especially in the modern vernacular has been divorced from the Old Testament law and is simply synonymous with any wrong doing, which is a perfectly valid use of the term. Even the bible repeatedly attributes sin to people that existed before the law was given (see Gen. 10:17 for one example).
So, while you are correct that in one context, the word sin refers to a transgression of the law, the bible uses the word sin in more than that single context. For example, Paul states that, "were there is no law, sin is not imputed." If your stated definition of the word sin were the only valid use of the term, he'd have said that "were there is no law, sin cannot be committed.", which is not what he said and would not have been accurate if he had. Just because the law has been taken out of the way does not mean that its okay to hurt the people around you, hurt yourself or grieve the Holy Spirit. (See the whole of Romans 6 below - its on this exact topic.)
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Of course! It was wrong when Cain killed Abel! You can't get much further back before the Torah than that!
achduke
Active member
The law is only taken away for those not under the law. Those that are not under the law have the Holy Spirit who guides them to follow the law. If one does not have the Holy Spirit then they are still under the law.
1 Corinthians and Galatians point out again that we need to be in the Spirit. If we have the Holy Spirit of God then we are all in one body in Christ and not under the law.
Firstly, I thank you for your very Christian use of language.
Secondly, you quoted the Christian Bible- not mine. It's like a Muslim quoting the Koran to you to prove some point.
The Book of the Law has been taken out of the way, but not the covenant.
achduke
Active member
Where does it say the book of the law has been taken out of the way?
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.