Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified . . . .

[keypurr]

If you don't mind, I will attempt to demonstrate Christ being God Incarnate (Aka: a Trinity)

All we need to really demonstrate this is the Baptism. (Matthew 3:13-17)

After Christ is baptized, the Holy Spirit descends as a dove, and God speaks, saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (KJV) At this moment, three very distinct, clear, and tremendous events have occurred. If one accepts the Trinity, then all three beings are present, in three distinctly different forms, all at once. But, as denying Christ being Incarnate, one must reject the Trinity. So let us progress.

God says "This is my beloved Son." If, as I believe I quoted earlier, we apply Hebrew understanding of Sonship, this is very significant. Sonship is a very high position. The son inherits all that is the father's, including the father's authority. With the hopes, even, of increasing the wealth. When God says "This is my Son," God is saying that Christ is inheriting all that is God's. God is declaring Christ has equal authority to himself. Christ affirms this in the Gospels (even going so far, proving the hypostatic nature further, by declaring "I and the Father are one."). If Christ is God Incarnate, then this passage makes perfect sense, and is not contradictory to any Scripture. If Christ is solely man, imputed with the Holy Spirit, God is breaking his own commandment, by making Christ his equal. This would be contradictory to God's Word, therefore, rendering God not the fullness of Truth.

But we can even trace this reality of Christ always being with God, as well as the Trinity, back to Genesis. When we read the Creation, "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep." And God said, "Let us make man in our image." Once again, all three members of the Trinity are present. If it was solely God moving upon the face of the deep, why does it say, "Spirit of God." If God was talking to the angels, why did he say "Our Image." The angels do not have a static image. They constantly change. Also, angels are not created in the image of God, as far as we have evidence of. Therefore, with the reality that Christ would become man, this phrase reveals even deeper truths, further pointing to Christ being One with God. Especially with the knowledge that Christ was human, this phrase bears great weight, and proves that God and Christ are One.

Other things to consider: If Christ were mere man, then He could not utter the phrase, "I and the Father are One," without being blasphemous.

If Christ were mere man, the Holy Spirit could not be His paternal source. Mary was a Virgin, no? Mere men must have physical paternal sources.

By Christ having an Immaculate Conception, and a Virgin Birth, it necessitates that He be more than mere mortal man, IE: God Incarnate. It would also point to God being eternal, since the conception by the Holy Spirit (being God) enabling Christ to be born (as God), God would be eternal, having no beginning, but simply always being. (I know this is deep and gets heavy very quickly)

If Jesus was born as God why did he need to grow in wisdom?

 

[Potter's Clay]

If Jesus was born as God why did he need to grow in wisdom?

Luke 2:52 speaks of Jesus's flesh. This does not mean that Jesus lacked spiritual knowledge and sinned. Instead, we should interpret this verse to speak of Jesus in the human form.


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[keypurr]

Luke 2:52 speaks of Jesus's flesh. This does not mean that Jesus lacked spiritual knowledge and sinned. Instead, we should interpret this verse to speak of Jesus in the human form.


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If Jesus was God he would not lack anything.

Jesus was not born as God. He was the body God prepared for his real son, the logos, the spirit son mentioned in Heb 1:3. Jesus received this power at his anointing. Acts 10:38.

Christ, the logos, is a form of God, not God.
He/it is the first creation for God created all through it/him.
He became flesh in the body of Jesus and spoke through him.

God was alone until he created his Son and gave him his fullness. That son was not Jesus.

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes, I have read the entirety of the Gospels several times. And time and again, the only logical conclusion that is reachable is Christ being God Incarnate.

Hypostatic nature is not a biological term, more of a theological term. It is utilized to describe the reality of Christ being 100% man, and 100% God.

Hypostatic = [2] natures in one body. Both vying for suspremancy over the other.

 

[Cross Reference]

If you don't mind, I will attempt to demonstrate Christ being God Incarnate (Aka: a Trinity)

All we need to really demonstrate this is the Baptism. (Matthew 3:13-17)

After Christ is baptized, the Holy Spirit descends as a dove, and God speaks, saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (KJV)

Note: [2} manifestaions of the Holy Spirit ["with" and "indwelling"] had been part of Jesus, the man, for 30 yrs prior to His Baptism with the Holy Spirit which came "upon" Him. The man was now equipped for ministry. His first mission was a test of His allegiance. cf Luke4:1-14 and Matheww 4:1-11 KJV.

At this moment, three very distinct, clear, and tremendous events have occurred. If one accepts the Trinity, then all three beings are present, in three distinctly different forms, all at once. But, as denying Christ being Incarnate, one must reject the Trinity. So let us progress.

Jesus, the man "approved of God", was the recipient of all [3] manifestations. By being such in His sinless state was He able to be "full of Grace and Truth" the which would sustain Him as He was entrusted with "Handling" God's glory. The whole Godhead He held in His Hands. . . . as a man!

God says "This is my beloved Son." If, as I believe I quoted earlier, we apply Hebrew understanding of Sonship, this is very significant. Sonship is a very high position. The son inherits all that is the father's, including the father's authority.

The operative words in your quote are "The son inherits all that is the Fathers". That hasn't happened yet, has it? cf Luke 22:69; with:

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." Acts 2:33-36 (KJV) [READ ACTS 2: FROM VS 27 KJV.]

When God says: "This is my Son," God is saying that Christ is inheriting all that is God's. God is declaring Christ has equal authority to himself. Christ affirms this in the Gospels (even going so far, proving the hypostatic nature further, by declaring "I and the Father are one.").

Up to now is Jesus THE Ambassador of God. He is God's representation of a "Normal man" being demonstrated to a fallen race; the "Normal" life purposed for His creation from the beginning. The "second Adam" won lifes 'battle' to make it possible for you and I to follow suit by the new birth from above, able to equip unto son-ship in the Father as Jesus was. Their relationship would merely be a normal one.

If Christ is God Incarnate, then this passage makes perfect sense, and is not contradictory to any Scripture. If Christ is solely man, imputed with the Holy Spirit, God is breaking his own commandment, by making Christ his equal. This would be contradictory to God's Word, therefore, rendering God not the fullness of Truth.

Christ is a title given Jesus, the man, which violates nothing if you can accept Jesus being God's normal man, 'enabled' by it to receive ALL from His Father as His Father wills it.

But we can even trace this reality of Christ always being with God, as well as the Trinity, back to Genesis.

You mean the "Word of God"; the Expression of His Heart; the "voice" of God Who spoke the creation into existence? If you agree with that then the rest of your statement below is more clear especially if it might be that the NAME given the "Word of God" was "Jesus" from eternity past; the form Moses saw in Exo.33:17-23 KJV.

When we read the Creation, "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep." And God said, "Let us make man in our image." Once again, all three members of the Trinity are present. If it was solely God moving upon the face of the deep, why does it say, "Spirit of God." If God was talking to the angels, why did he say "Our Image." The angels do not have a static image. They constantly change. Also, angels are not created in the image of God, as far as we have evidence of. Therefore, with the reality that Christ would become man, this phrase reveals even deeper truths, further pointing to Christ being One with God. Especially with the knowledge that Christ was human, this phrase bears great weight, and proves that God and Christ are One.

Remember, "Christ" is a title given Jesus, the son of man . . "the "anointed One".

Other things to consider: If Christ were mere man, then He could not utter the phrase, "I and the Father are One," without being blasphemous.

Jesus was NOT mere man. He a sinless man, able to stand in the Presence of God without being slain by the GLORY.. BIG difference. He demonsrtared that on the Mount speaking with Moses and Elijah.

If Christ were mere man, the Holy Spirit could not be His paternal source. Mary was a Virgin, no? Mere men must have physical paternal sources.

Jesus was sinless BECAUSE of His Paternal source. That was the only way God could introduce a sinless being into Adam's race. As God was the Author of creation, Jesus, by His obedience, BECAME the Author of our salvation. See Heb 2:10 KJV.

By Christ having an Immaculate Conception, and a Virgin Birth, it necessitates that He be more than mere mortal man, IE: God Incarnate.

Only in the afterwards of redemption does that need to be so.[I think] Redemption necessitated "mere" sinless blood for it to happen. That is the part [redemption] man could have had nothing to do with. God performed it universally. Salvation, however, is not universal. It requires believing for it. cf Paul's reply to the Jailer in Acts.

It would also point to God being eternal, since the conception by the Holy Spirit (being God) enabling Christ to be born (as God), God would be eternal, having no beginning, but simply always being. (I know this is deep and gets heavy very quickly)

Why do you suppose Jesus speaks of the unforgivable sin as being speaking against the Holy Spirit and not God or Himself?

 

[jamie]

God was alone until he created his Son and gave him his fullness. That son was not Jesus.

Is Christ the King of Righteousness?

 

[jamie]

Christ is the servant Son of his Father, not his equal.

Equality does not negate authority.

In this country we promote the premise that all men are created equal, but some have authority.

The term most high requires there are those who are less high.

 

[jsanford108]

Your making him God



Christ is the servant Son of his Father, not his equal. Christ is the first of all creation, a creature enpowerd by his creator.
He was given the fullness of his Father.




God raised Jesus who is the human body that held the Christ (logos)You break the commandment when you acceot the Son as YHWH.




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[/QUOTE]

What does it mean to be given the "fullness of the father?" That means "fullness," no? Hence, God made Christ equal. My point stands firm.


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[jsanford108]

If Jesus was born as God why did he need to grow in wisdom?

Where do you find Christ "growing in wisdom?"


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[jsanford108]

Hypostatic = [2] natures in one body. Both vying for suspremancy over the other.

They are not vying for supremacy. They are both whole. Vying would be a symptom of unequal parts. Christ is 100% each. Christ being supernatural is beyond natural limits.

 

[jsanford108]

Note: [2} manifestaions of the Holy Spirit ["with" and "indwelling"] had been part of Jesus, the man, for 30 yrs prior to His Baptism with the Holy Spirit which came "upon" Him. The man was now equipped for ministry. His first mission was a test of His allegiance. cf Luke4:1-14 and Matheww 4:1-11 KJV.



Jesus, the man "approved of God", was the recipient of all [3] manifestations. By being such in His sinless state was He able to be "full of Grace and Truth" the which would sustain Him as He was entrusted with "Handling" God's glory. The whole Godhead He held in His Hands. . . . as a man!



The operative words in your quote are "The son inherits all that is the Fathers". That hasn't happened yet, has it? cf Luke 22:69; with:

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." Acts 2:33-36 (KJV) [READ ACTS 2: FROM VS 27 KJV.]



Up to now is Jesus THE Ambassador of God. He is God's representation of a "Normal man" being demonstrated to a fallen race; the "Normal" life purposed for His creation from the beginning. The "second Adam" won lifes 'battle' to make it possible for you and I to follow suit by the new birth from above, able to equip unto son-ship in the Father as Jesus was. Their relationship would merely be a normal one.




Christ is a title given Jesus, the man, which violates nothing if you can accept Jesus being God's normal man, 'enabled' by it to receive ALL from His Father as His Father wills it.



You mean the "Word of God"; the Expression of His Heart; the "voice" of God Who spoke the creation into existence? If you agree with that then the rest of your statement below is more clear especially if it might be that the NAME given the "Word of God" was "Jesus" from eternity past; the form Moses saw in Exo.33:17-23 KJV.



Remember, "Christ" is a title given Jesus, the son of man . . "the "anointed One".



Jesus was NOT mere man. He a sinless man, able to stand in the Presence of God without being slain by the GLORY.. BIG difference. He demonsrtared that on the Mount speaking with Moses and Elijah.



Jesus was sinless BECAUSE of His Paternal source. That was the only way God could introduce a sinless being into Adam's race. As God was the Author of creation, Jesus, by His obedience, BECAME the Author of our salvation. See Heb 2:10 KJV.



Only in the afterwards of redemption does that need to be so.[I think] Redemption necessitated "mere" sinless blood for it to happen. That is the part [redemption] man could have had nothing to do with. God performed it universally. Salvation, however, is not universal. It requires believing for it. cf Paul's reply to the Jailer in Acts.



Why do you suppose Jesus speaks of the unforgivable sin as being speaking against the Holy Spirit and not God or Himself?

If I may, I will respond to this post later on, when I can accurately break down my response at a computer. I assure you I will respond. Your reply is quite lengthy, and I would like to really dive into it. I apologize for the delay.


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[beloved57]

oatmeal

Jesus Christ did not exist before his conception and birth. Matthew 1:18

Thats a invalid statement not found in scripture.

In fact Paul says specifically that God created all things by Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9 [FONT=&quot]And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This speaks to His existense before creation, so certainly before His virgin birth ![/FONT]

 

[Cross Reference]

If I may, I will respond to this post later on, when I can accurately break down my response at a computer. I assure you I will respond. Your reply is quite lengthy, and I would like to really dive into it. I apologize for the delay.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

 

[jamie]

Where do you find Christ "growing in wisdom?"

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." (Luke 2:52)

 

[jsanford108]

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." (Luke 2:52)

Thanks. My quick recall was failing me. I appreciate you providing the verse.


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[keypurr]

oatmeal



Thats a invalid statement not found in scripture.

In fact Paul says specifically that God created all things by Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9 [FONT="]And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This speaks to His existense before creation, so certainly before His virgin birth ![/FONT]

The Greek to English show a lot of distortions in the KJV and the NKJV to lead people away from the truth. There is only one God, the God which Jesus Christ has. You fall for the fables of the early fathers who gave in to the pagans.

 

[beloved57]

The Greek to English show a lot of distortions in the KJV and the NKJV to lead people away from the truth. There is only one God, the God which Jesus Christ has. You fall for the fables of the early fathers who gave in to the pagans.

False statements not valid.

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[patrick jane]

The Greek to English show a lot of distortions in the KJV and the NKJV to lead people away from the truth. There is only one God, the God which Jesus Christ has. You fall for the fables of the early fathers who gave in to the pagans.

You were lead down the wrong path, away from the truth, some years ago. You know you are wrong, that's why you keep posting anti-trinity propaganda day after day. You are trying to convince yourself of your own false doctrine.

 

[Cross Reference]

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." (Luke 2:52)

Couple that with: ". . . . . . .Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God . . . . . . ": Acts 2:22 (KJV)

 

[Zeke]

Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified or was His humanity simply speaking from a divine disposition?

I sincerely ask without a religious agenda.

Those who follow the observable history of Christ haven't discerned Luke 17:20-21, neither Christ nor his kingdom is observed by man except by revelation Galatians 1:12,4:1, the letter kills 2Cor 3:6 unless its spiritual intent is revealed by revelation, the student of history and future never will grasp their own inheritance/position as the eternal off spring of Spirit until they stop thinking like man with his limitations as a personality/sinner effected by duality of divisions time and seasons, the Seed of God sleeps in the illusion/field of mortal flesh and blood, you the eternal I! became the prodigal son that was sent to experience the sleep of separation from our true Self which is Spirit, as long as you agree that you are flesh and blood you will bow to that limitation.