Union with Christ before believing in Him !

[Grosnick Marowbe]

B57 and Nanja, "The Un-dynamic Duo" of Un-brilliant "hyper-Calvinistic fanatics." Aren't we lucky?
Instead of taking "The Grace Route," you two geniuses have decided to go down the road to perdition.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yep, I'll be getting to parts 4 and 5 tomorrow, the Lord willing 1 Thes. 4:16-17! :rapture:

~~~~~

Part 5 includes, "The Road map to destruction." Read that one twice.

 

[OliviaM]

Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !

What does this mean being united before belief?

Are you saying God has only a select chosen people who be chosen to be saved and the rest perish?

If that is what you are saying then no. There is no unity before belief as that makes God not a nice God.

 

[beloved57]

What does this mean being united before belief?

Are you saying God has only a select chosen people who be chosen to be saved and the rest perish?

If that is what you are saying then no. There is no unity before belief as that makes God not a nice God.

Read the thread, I have explained what i mean!

 

[God's Truth]

There is no such thing as being saved before you believe.

There is no such thing anywhere in the Bible.

That belief is a made up doctrine.

 

[Robert Pate]

Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !

This is the biggest heresy on the Forum.

I am surprised that Knight doesn't delete it.

 

[Shasta]

[God's Truth;4476789]Don’t add to the scripture.

I have already shown you with scripture that THEY WERE ASKING FOR WHAT THEY ARE TO DO AND JESUS TOLD THEM.

That tey were not inquiring about how to be saved is evident from the context.

26Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

They wanted to know how they could do miraculous works like Jesus did when He multiplied the loaves and fish. The subject of doing miracles continued when they brought up the subject of manna.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

Jesus said faith is the work of God. The result of God working in us is faith, which does not mean His work is irresistible only that is the most crucial thing He accomplished in the human heart.

Throughout this post you have emphasized human will and thought to the neglect of the operation of the Holy Spirit

1. Jesus said No one decides to seek God on their own apart from the influence of the Spirit (John 6:44).

2. The Spirit convicts the world of sin, (John 16:8).

3. He bears witness to the truth in our conscience (Rom. 9:1).

4. He enables us to obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22).

5. You speak of the power of the scriptures but they are called the Sword of the SPIRIT It is the Holy Spirit Who makes the Word living, sharp and powerful.

6. The Spirit, using the word, glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).

7. The word alone is not enough to bring people to repentance and salvation. In fact, the letter of the word devoid of the Spirit kills (2 Corinthians 3:6). This is why so many theologians who studied the word intensely ended up persecuting and even executing those who disagreed with them.

What?

nm

God listens to those who obey. God does not listen to unrepentant sinners.

I never said God listens to unrepentant sinners but He reaches out to unrepentant sinners to convince them of their sin

What in the world are you talking about?

You are like a Calvinist if you keep saying things such as that.
We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

Since the Spirit IS involved in convicting us of sin, revealing the truth of Christ and making the Word real to us there IS a supernatural element to our having faith in Christ.
Furthermore the Bible says our faith comes from God.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Ephesians 2:8)

At the same time we have the choice of whether we believe in Him or reject His influence. This view - that both man and God play a part in a person getting saved is called synergism. This is not Calvinism which holds that only God is responsible for a person being saved (monergism). Your position sounds much like another view, Pelagianism, which holds that man can come to Christ, have faith to be saved and walk in perfect obedience without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[beloved57]

This is the biggest heresy on the Forum.

I am surprised that Knight doesn't delete it.

You always call the Gospel Truth heresy!

 

[beloved57]

There is no such thing as being saved before you believe.

There is no such thing anywhere in the Bible.

That belief is a made up doctrine.

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost! 2Cor4:3 ! You have to be saved before it is not hidden from you and then it is believed!

 

[beloved57]

When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 6

When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 6

That word Possession in Gen 17:8

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

It has to do with Possession by right of Inheritance, for example Numbers 27:7

7 The daughters of Zelophehad speak right: thou shalt surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father's brethren; and thou shalt cause the inheritance of their father to pass unto them.

Num 32:32

32 We will pass over armed before the Lord into the land of Canaan, that the possession of our inheritance on this side Jordan may be our's.

Num 35:2

2 Command the children of Israel, that they give unto the Levites of the inheritance of their possession cities to dwell in; and ye shall give also unto the Levites suburbs for the cities round about them.

Ezk 46:16

16 Thus saith the Lord God; If the prince give a gift unto any of his sons, the inheritance thereof shall be his sons'; it shall be their possession by inheritance.

And this Promise Inheritance was given to Abraham and his seed Gal 3:18 ; Gen 17:8

Now this Inheritance is Eternal Life, and so its through and in Christ, for remember what John wrote 1 Jn 5:11

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life/or Inheritance, and this life is in his Son

The Eternal Life/Inheritance is by and through Christ, the Spiritual Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

This Promise to Abraham and his Seed in Gen 17:8

And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Its confirmed in Christ, and so those who belong to Christ are Abrahams Seed and Heirs Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

See, in order for Isaac and Jacob to be Heirs with Abraham Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

They had to belong to Christ, because remember the Inheritance , which is the Everlasting Possession of Canaan Gen 17:8, its Everlasting Life, only in the Son 1 Jn 5:11 !

 

[beloved57]

When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 7

When did the believer first have Eternal Life ? 7

Now who is this Seed of Abrahams that shall with Abraham receive their inheritance of the everlasting canaan Gen 17:5-8

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The Seed is not ethnic jews, though some of them shall be included along with people from every nation, notice again Vs 5:

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

The word nations is inclusive of the Gentiles, so Gentiles are his Seed also, no not physically, but by their Joint Union with him in his Seed Christ Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The Promise of Gen 17:7-8 is first and foremost to Christ, Abrahams Seed, and it is to others, whether jew or gentile through belonging to Christ Gal 3:16,29 !

All the promises of God to the Fathers are via Christ to the Glory of God 2 Cor 1:20

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Christ fulfills the Promises made to the Fathers of the Faith Rom 15:8

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Fathers here are not speaking about natural Fathers, but Fathers in the Faith, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Heirs of the same Promises with Abraham Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Gentile Believers are Abrahams Sons and Daughters from all Nations, hence that is why it is written that God will gather the Seed from everywhere like here Isa 43:4-6

Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Thats why Jesus said that in the Eternal Kingdom this Matt 8:10-11


10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

The Many here reperesents Abrahams Seed from the Nations Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

The centurions comment in Matt 8:9 is what caused Jesus to say what He did in Vs 10-11, hence forecasting the Faith of the Gentiles from the nations who were Abraham's Children/Seed, for he[the centurion ] was a Gentile !

Luke writes it adding the north and the south, wheras Matt just wrote east and the west Lk 13:28-29

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out

And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

This fulfills Isa 43:5-6 !

All these are the Heirs of Promise, Joint Heirs with Jesus Christ, and they all had Eternal Life by Heirship Promise, due to their Election in Christ, Abraham's Seed, before the foundation Eph 1:4 and so by Promise and Purpose they had Eternal Life before they became believers !

 

[God's Truth]

That tey were not inquiring about how to be saved is evident from the context.

26Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ateyour fill of the loaves. 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate themanna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

They wanted to know how they could do miraculous works like Jesus did when He multiplied the loaves and fish. The subject of doing miracles continued when they brought up the subject of manna.

Jesus said they are seeking him NOT because they saw signs, but because they ATE THEIR FILL OF THE LOAVES.

Jesus said faith is the work of God. The result of God working in us is faith, which does not mean His work is irresistible only that is the most crucial thing He accomplished in the human heart.

Throughout this post you have emphasized human will and thought to the neglect of the operation of the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit does not make us believe supernaturally.

1. Jesus said No one decides to seek God on their own apart from the influence of the Spirit (John 6:44).

That scripture is about when God HARDENED the Jews who did NOT have FAITH BEFORE JESUS CAME.

That

2. The Spirit convicts the world of sin, (John 16:8).

The Spirit convicts the world of sin does not mean the Holy Spirit supernaturally makes us have faith.

3. He bears witness to the truth in our conscience (Rom. 9:1).

4. He enables us to obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22).

Be more careful what you say the scripture is saying. The scripture does not say that at all.

5. You speak of the power of the scriptures but they are called the Sword of the SPIRIT It is the Holy Spirit Who makes the Word living, sharp and powerful.

Since I speak of the power of the scriptures, why then do you think you have proven me wrong?

6. The Spirit, using the word, glorifies and testifies of Christ (John 15:26; 16:14).

7. The word alone is not enough to bring people to repentance and salvation. In fact, the letter of the word devoid of the Spirit kills (2 Corinthians 3:6).

You repeat what false teachers say. You just contradicted yourself. Read what you wrote right here, and then what you just wrote before about the written word.
Paul is NOT saying that his letters are devoid of the Spirit and KILLS.
Paul is speaking about the old law that said to put people to death for their sins.

This is why so many theologians who studied the word intensely ended up persecuting and even executing those who disagreed with them.

What? That is not true. They put people to death because they were false teachers without understanding.

ThatSince the Spirit IS involved in convicting us of sin, revealing the truth of Christ and making the Word real to us there IS asupernatural element to our having faith in Christ.
Furthermore the Bible says our faith comes from God.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Ephesians 2:8)

That scripture is about OUR NOT HAVING TO CLEAN OURSELVES, just to be able to go to the temple, where God’s Spirit was, and worship Him.

Faith in Jesus’ blood now cleans us.

At the same time we have the choice of whether we believe in Him or reject His influence. This view - that both man and God play a part in a person getting saved is called synergism. This is not Calvinism which holds that only God is responsible for a person being saved (monergism). Your position sounds much like another view, Pelagianism, which holds that man can come to Christ, have faith to be saved and walk in perfect obedience without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

You sound too worldly, trying to give me some man’s name to say I follow.

Anyone can come to God, if they can seek Him, they are to seek Him, and they will find Him.

 

[God's Truth]

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost! 2Cor4:3 ! You have to be saved before it is not hidden from you and then it is believed!

The Gospel is hid to them but they can turn to Christ and be saved.

2 Corinthians 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.…

Did you read that?

Whenever A PERSON TURNS TO THE LORD, the veil is taken away.

There is no scripture that says what you claim, and that is that Jesus saves us first and then we believe.

WE have to TURN TO JESUS.

Does that scripture say, "but whenever Jesus turns someone to him"?

No, it does not say that. It says that NOWHERE.

 

[beloved57]

The Gospel is hid to them but they can turn to Christ and be saved.

2 Corinthians 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.…

Did you read that?

Whenever A PERSON TURNS TO THE LORD, the veil is taken away.

There is no scripture that says what you claim, and that is that Jesus saves us first and then we believe.

WE have to TURN TO JESUS.

Does that scripture say, "but whenever Jesus turns someone to him"?

No, it does not say that. It says that NOWHERE.

Sorry, Paul plainly says that the Gospel is hid to them that are lost, so they believe not 2Cor4:3-4!

 

[God's Truth]

Sorry, Paul plainly says that the Gospel is hid to them that are lost, so they believe not 2Cor4:3-4!

It is hid to those who do not want to believe, BECAUSE they do not believe. It is not that they cannot believe until Jesus first saves them. There is no such teaching from God. In fact, that teaching goes against the Word of God.

If they obey Jesus and humble themselves, then they could have a chance.

Jesus tells us how to be saved.

Jesus says humble yourselves.

PEOPLE CAN HUMBLE THEMSELVES, I know this because JESUS SAYS SO.

Jesus does NOT SAY TO ANYONE that they can believe if he makes them believe.

You believe in something and someone that is not there.

 

[God's Truth]

Think about it harder.

Our hearts have to be prepared for Jesus to live there.

God wants US TO HUMBLE OURSELVES.

He tells us how and why.

If it is as the Calvinists say, then show the scripture. There is no scripture anywhere that says Jesus is telling people how to be saved, yet secretly knows they cannot until he saves them!

 

[Shasta]

shasta

Where does it say its not ?

No doctrine can be established on the basis that "nothing was said contrary to it." Doctrines must be established by positive exegetically-sound evidence in scripture. Can you imagine a prosecutor making a case to a jury based on making inferences and on the proposition that "nothing in the evidence says it is NOT so? The case would be thrown out of court.

The most important way to find out what the scripture is saying is to let scripture interpret scripture. For instance, if you want to differentiate true faith from false then you should use James. He said that the difference was that those who only believed mentally was that they exhibited no life changes. John said much the same thing in his letter. James and John agree that the active participation of the will is involved in the exercise of true faith. What you are saying is entirely different - that the voluntary submission of the will to the Spirit of God [/YELLOW]is not only unnecessary BUT that it is a mark of a false faith built upon dead works.

Its only common sense, If one isnt regenerated by the Spirit, and their Faith isnt the Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22, then its of the flesh ! The only way it isnt of the flesh is if its the Fruit of the Spirit, common sense guided by scripture principles dictates that ! Jn 3:6

So. to be clear, what you are saying is that we cannot have faith until we have the fruit of faith. Well, faith does not start out as a fruit. When we first receive the seed of the Gospel by faith our faith is as small as a mustard seed. After the new life germinates it grows, eventually producing fruit in our character. 2 Peter 1:5 speaks of the growth of the traits of Christ in our character starting out with faith.

The fruit of faith is the product of time, growth and maturity of that initial faith. So when the Bible speaks about the fruit of faith it is not referring to our initial STEP of faith whereby we were saved. Rather, the fruit grows as we continue to walk in FAITH.

Saying that it is "common sense" tells me that you arrived at this idea through reasoning. Well enough, I have nothing against reasoning, but the first responsibility of a "workman" is to rightly divide what the text says regardless of what our presuppositions are. When Paul used the term he was referring to religious good "deeds". Having been a Pharisee this was something he knew a lot about.

That being said, I will grant that if anyone sees their mere belief as meritorious then that kind of "faith" is probably false. It would be in the same category as the "dead faith" that James talked about. Mentally assenting to a set of propositions about Christ does not save anyone any more than reciting the Apostles Creed. You need not deduce this. It can be found in the writings of James and John.

YOUR idea - that any kind of "faith" that involves voluntary choice and surrender is the same as "good works" is false and unBiblical. Faith is a verb (pisteuo) as well as a noun (pistis). To say that someone "believed" and was saved means that they "exercised faith" which necessarily implies an exercise of their will.

Faith means to "believe in, trust in, rely upon, have confidence in." This automatically contradicts the attitude of self-sufficiency and pride that goes along with "good works." To trust in Christ people must become needy, often to the point of desperation.

 

[PureX]

I know I'm coming in late, here, but it seems to me that our "union with Christ" and our "belief in Christ" are basically the same things; and so occur at the same time.

To "believe in Christ" is to believe that God's love and forgiveness acting in us and through us, to others, will heal us and save us from ourselves, and help to heal and save them as well. And that our "union with Christ" is our doing exactly that. So I don't see how we can really do one without the other.

It's similar to that age old and ever foolish question about "faith vs. works", as if they were opposites of each other, when in fact they are part-and-parcel of each other. Faith is believing in the doing and works is doing what we believe. And neither one of them mean or accomplish anything without the other.

 

[beloved57]

shasta





No doctrine can be established on the basis that "nothing was said contrary to it." Doctrines must be established by positive exegetically-sound evidence in scripture. Can you imagine a prosecutor making a case to a jury based on making inferences and on the proposition that "nothing in the evidence says it is NOT so? The case would be thrown out of court.

The most important way to find out what the scripture is saying is to let scripture interpret scripture. For instance, if you want to differentiate true faith from false then you should use James. He said that the difference was that those who only believed mentally was that they exhibited no life changes. John said much the same thing in his letter. James and John agree that the active participation of the will is involved in the exercise of true faith. What you are saying is entirely different - that the voluntary submission of the will to the Spirit of God [/YELLOW]is not only unnecessary BUT that it is a mark of a false faith built upon dead works.



So. to be clear, what you are saying is that we cannot have faith until we have the fruit of faith. Well, faith does not start out as a fruit. When we first receive the seed of the Gospel by faith our faith is as small as a mustard seed. After the new life germinates it grows, eventually producing fruit in our character. 2 Peter 1:5 speaks of the growth of the traits of Christ in our character starting out with faith.

The fruit of faith is the product of time, growth and maturity of that initial faith. So when the Bible speaks about the fruit of faith it is not referring to our initial STEP of faith whereby we were saved. Rather, the fruit grows as we continue to walk in FAITH.

Saying that it is "common sense" tells me that you arrived at this idea through reasoning. Well enough, I have nothing against reasoning, but the first responsibility of a "workman" is to rightly divide what the text says regardless of what our presuppositions are. When Paul used the term he was referring to religious good "deeds". Having been a Pharisee this was something he knew a lot about.

That being said, I will grant that if anyone sees their mere belief as meritorious then that kind of "faith" is probably false. It would be in the same category as the "dead faith" that James talked about. Mentally assenting to a set of propositions about Christ does not save anyone any more than reciting the Apostles Creed. You need not deduce this. It can be found in the writings of James and John.

YOUR idea - that any kind of "faith" that involves voluntary choice and surrender is the same as "good works" is false and unBiblical. Faith is a verb (pisteuo) as well as a noun (pistis). To say that someone "believed" and was saved means that they "exercised faith" which necessarily implies an exercise of their will.

Faith means to "believe in, trust in, rely upon, have confidence in." This automatically contradicts the attitude of self-sufficiency and pride that goes along with "good works." To trust in Christ people must become needy, often to the point of desperation.

Did you read and understand the OP ?

 

[beloved57]

purex

I know I'm coming in late, here, but it seems to me that our "union with Christ" and our "belief in Christ" are basically the same things; and so occur at the same time.

As I explained, without a Union with Christ when He died for us, then God had no legal basis or ground to charge Him with our sins, so there had to be a Union with Christ before He could legally die for us and we can believe on Him !