musterion
Well-known member
No. Convicted sinners who see the Cross for what it is SHOULD be sorry for sin and will be (hence the conviction) but that is not what the word means.
Union with Christ before believing in Him !
- Thread starter beloved57
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No. Convicted sinners who see the Cross for what it is SHOULD be sorry for sin and will be (hence the conviction) but that is not what the word means.
God's Truth
New member
Repent is a command from Jesus from the right hand of God in heaven. I have also proven the it is Jesus' command to the whole world:
Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Revelation 9:21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony
Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.
Why don't you read those scriptures and believe them, and stop preaching that repent is not of sins, and that Jesus never tells us all to repent of our sins?
Revelation 2:5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
Did you read that scripture? That is what will happen if SAVED people do not repent of their SINS.
beloved57
Well-known member
Do you understand what this thread is about?
God's Truth
New member
We can believe in Jesus before we obey, and we can believe in Jesus after we obey. Jesus tells us that, see John 7:17.
However, we will NOT BE SAVED UNTIL AFTER WE OBEY!
See also Proverbs 3:5-6, John 14:21, and
musterion
Well-known member
1. Revelation is describing the coming days after this dispensation of grace has ended.
2. The word means what it means, not what you claim it means.
Now hush up.
beloved57
Well-known member
What point did I make in this thread?
Shasta
Well-known member
If you are going to undertake the project of imposing a thread containing an error of this magnitude then you should be willing to provide answers to objections. For instance, on John 15 I made the following comments summarized here:
Now do you understand what I am saying here?
Now do you understand what I am saying here?
Shasta
Well-known member
In a dispensation, in other words, where salvation through faith in the work of Christ is no longer possible, when the cross is no longer "the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes." If the power of the cross has an expiration date then no man could ever be saved. Yet many shall be saved in the last times.
God's Truth
New member
When Jesus comes again at the end of the world it will be too late.
When Jesus comes again, it will be too late, because Jesus is not coming to BEAR SIN.
We have access to GRACE WHEN WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS' BLOOD CLEANS US FROM THE SINS WE REPENT OF DOING.
When Jesus comes again, it will be too late.
Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Luke 21:34
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.
Revelation 16:15
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Shasta
Well-known member
Christ knew that others WOULD hear Him calling and that they would follow Him. However, none of them could be part of His flock until this happened.
Those that are led of the Spirit are the sons of God (Romans 8:14)
When we were part of the world we were not following after Jesus nor were we a part of His flock. Speaking about this PAST state Paul says:
…2 in which you (believers)formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest (Ephesians 2:2-3)
Previous to their conversion the Ephesians did not follow the Shepherd. They followed the Prince and Power of the Air (the devil). They were not "led of the Spirit" but were led by the "lusts of the flesh and mind." Yet you say they were already in the Lord's flock. Whom shall we believe - you or what the Word plainly says?
Hearing and believing was what made them into sheep. When you say that was when they became "manifested sheep" it sounds like they really were sheep but not visibly According the the scripture I cited (Ephesians 2:2-3) they were not children of God by nature at all but children of wrath. If you are under grace you cannot be under wrath at the same time.
Children of wrath are those who reject the son.
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him (John 3:36).
Until we believe/obey the Son we remain children of wrath.
Declaring that his son was dead was a complete repudiation of all relationship to him. It was also a termination of all his legal rights as a son. It is the same when someone in modern Judaism declares their son "dead." Sometimes they actually have funerals for the "dead" son. You cannot be any more cut off than when you are treated as if you no longer live.
It was only when the prodigal repented that was he was declared no longer to be dead. You missed the whole point of the story. The Prodigal was legally and relationally dead and lost until he was restored.
You need not read predestination into Hebrews when it was not the subject. It is more straight forward to read it to mean that at first He "came to His brethren the Jews."
No one was born again spiritually speaking until after the work of the cross was completed and Jesus was raised. Only then the hearts of those who believed could be cleansed and they could be born again by the Holy Spirit. No one was born again until then.
The Spirit is sent into the hearts of men after they are born again. Then when He declares they are sons it is the truth. Those Paul is addressing in Romans were believers not unbelievers so these scriptures do nothing to prove your main point which is that "the elect" are saved before they believe.
Nanja
Well-known member
Excellent illustration!
Also, the only way any of us had a Union with Christ, was by being chosen by God in Christ
before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-5.
Yet there are many who falsely teach that one can place himself in Christ by his own choosing;
doing works of the flesh, e.g. believing, repenting, calling upon Him, etc.
But they are only deceiving themselves!
For all the Workings of God in His Choosing and Predestinating those who would inherit Eternal Life in Christ
was completed in it's entirety before the world even began 2 Tim. 1:9. It's immutable!
~~~~~
beloved57
Well-known member
Amen!
Shasta
Well-known member
Believing is a work of the flesh? The Bible disagrees with you:
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent (John 6:29)”
You say our believing is a "work of the flesh." Jesus said it is the work of God. Who are we to believe? Not only that but nobody would ever repent unless the Holy Spirit had drawn and convicted him first of their sins.
God's Truth
New member
We have to do the believing, not God.
The men asked what must WE DO for the works God requires, THEN JESUS TOLD THEM.
God's Truth
New member
People need to stop being afraid of the word work.
You will not be saved unless you become a servant to God, and then you will be His friend.
Isaiah 41:8 "But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,
You will not be saved unless you become a servant to God, and then you will be His friend.
Isaiah 41:8 "But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,
Nanja
Well-known member
A person's own act of believing to get himself saved is merely a work of the flesh and therefore cannot please God.
Rom. 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Belief / faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22. So to believe on Christ is the work of God the Holy Spirit in one who has been given New Birth.
~~~~~
beloved57
Well-known member
nanja
Yes, and its teaching Salvation by works, by what a person does. The definition of a work is found in the greek word used for work, ergon and it means:
any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind
The act of believing is accomplished by the mind,
also the word means :
an act, deed, thing done
Again, to believe is an act, a deed done, a thing done by man !
and once again its defined as:
érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).
Which equates to the will of a man. So all who teach that they are saved from sin after they believe, they are in essence saying they are saved by their work, and its boasting !
Yes, and its teaching Salvation by works, by what a person does. The definition of a work is found in the greek word used for work, ergon and it means:
any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind
The act of believing is accomplished by the mind,
also the word means :
an act, deed, thing done
Again, to believe is an act, a deed done, a thing done by man !
and once again its defined as:
érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).
Which equates to the will of a man. So all who teach that they are saved from sin after they believe, they are in essence saying they are saved by their work, and its boasting !
Nanja
Well-known member
beloved57
Well-known member
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ?
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ?
Now many would be quick to answer, it was given them after they believed, but that is an error, it was given in Promise in Christ before the world began ! Eternal Life is only and has always been only in the Son of God, which is Christ 1 Jn 5:11,13
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
And this Eternal life of theirs, was always with the Father, in Christ for them 1 Jn 1:1-2
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)
Its the same Life John wrote of in his Gospel Jn 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
So it [Eternal Life] was Promised them in Him before the world began, so Paul wrote to Titus this Titus 1:1-2
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Now pay close attention to Vs 2, accordingly when did God Promise Eternal Life " The answer:
"promised before the world began"
Now this same exact phrase " before the world began" is also found here 2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
When Paul declares that Purpose and Grace was given us in Christ Jesus [The Son 1 Jn 5:11] before the world began, and herein lies the giving of Eternal Life by Promise !
When did the believer first have Eternal Life ?
Now many would be quick to answer, it was given them after they believed, but that is an error, it was given in Promise in Christ before the world began ! Eternal Life is only and has always been only in the Son of God, which is Christ 1 Jn 5:11,13
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
And this Eternal life of theirs, was always with the Father, in Christ for them 1 Jn 1:1-2
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)
Its the same Life John wrote of in his Gospel Jn 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
So it [Eternal Life] was Promised them in Him before the world began, so Paul wrote to Titus this Titus 1:1-2
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Now pay close attention to Vs 2, accordingly when did God Promise Eternal Life " The answer:
"promised before the world began"
Now this same exact phrase " before the world began" is also found here 2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
When Paul declares that Purpose and Grace was given us in Christ Jesus [The Son 1 Jn 5:11] before the world began, and herein lies the giving of Eternal Life by Promise !