Arthur Brain
Well-known member
I've seen footage on the ground by veteran war correspondents out there in the thick of it and on a daily basis. Unlike you, I don't source my "news" from any given wingnut site thanks.
Ukraine Crisis
- Thread starter annabenedetti
- Start date
Yeah. Sure. Documents that come from .gov archives that the Congress of the US forced to be released are a conspiracy. Certainly can't trust those documents to be true.
Your conspiracy theories are really out there. All I have to do is engage you for a little bit and your love of, and reliance upon, conspiracies comes shining through.
Here's you: I ain't gonna believe any government documents! I absolutely refuse to even read them.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Here's you: An apologist for Putin.
The projection was almost funny though, I'll give ya that.
I'll tell you what. You present your evidence that what I say about what the US, NATO, and the CIA have done to
Russia is false and I'll present the truth and whoever can't prove what they say leaves this forum forever.
This ought to be a slam dunk for you as I'm a loony conspiracy theorist. Right?
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Russian Troops Brag They Bombed Fleeing Families at Train Station
Journalists who had visited the train station in recent days documented hundreds of people crowded onto platforms waiting to evacuate. The local governor said there were as many as 4,000 people waiting to evacuate when rockets struck the building. A Russian Defense spokesperson denied the attack, calling it a “provocation” instead.
Unsaved barbarians hate and murder innocent people, including unborn babies, because they are of their father the devil and the devil delights to have them murder innocent people.Russian Troops Brag They Bombed Fleeing Families at Train Station
Journalists who had visited the train station in recent days documented hundreds of people crowded onto platforms waiting to evacuate. The local governor said there were as many as 4,000 people waiting to evacuate when rockets struck the building. A Russian Defense spokesperson denied the attack, calling it a “provocation” instead.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Vermont Conversation: GOP operative Stuart Stevens on how Republicans went from Cold Warriors to Putin apologists
"I think that the compromising of the Republican Party by Putin and Russian intelligence is the most successful intelligence action in modern history."“We have an autocratic movement in America that is threatening democracy itself,” Stevens said. “They’ll be for democracy when they win and they won’t be for it when they lose. That means you’re not a democracy. And if we don’t wake up and face this, we’re going to lose democracy.”
I think that the compromising of the Republican Party by Putin and Russian intelligence is the most successful intelligence action in modern history. It really isn’t complicated. Russia supported Trump in 2016. We know that. You can argue whether or not they made a difference. That’s always difficult in politics because causality is the hardest thing to determine. But we know that they made a concerted, massive effort to elect Donald Trump. They were so successful that when this was exposed, conservatives defended it by calling it a “Russian hoax.” Can you imagine, if you’re a Russian intelligence officer, how you’re chortling? At one time, the Republican Party was the chief antagonist to the Soviet Union, then Russia. And now that party has become an apologist for Putin. . . .
A large element of the conservative movement has become a pro-Putin autocratic movement. They see Putin as a white Christian nationalist. There are no gay people in Russia. You never see any women in power in Russia. It is not a democracy. Putin is a strong man. All of this draws much of the Republican Party.
Donald Trump did not change the Republican Party. He revealed it. And for those of us who worked in the Republican Party for a long time, it’s a devastating conclusion. But I think it’s the only honest one.
Stuart Stevens, who knows Republican politics from the inside. He was a top Republican political operative who worked on five presidential campaigns, including the campaigns of Mitt Romney in 2012 and George W. Bush in 2000 and 2004.
This is an excerpt of a much longer conversation at the link. For those who can't or won't believe that this really is where the Republican party is at today, I don't expect you'll read the entire conversation, but maybe one of you will surprise yourself. The fight here at TOL is a tiny microcosm, and it's representative, if not consequential. The fight is out there, outside TOL, and that's where we'll find ourselves one day.
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ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Praying that God will remove the chains of insanity that bind you
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
By his own account he spends most of his days reading, and he's reading things that have taken him down the rabbit hole into another dimension. That's the dark side of being an autodidact. When he is his own teacher, he doesn't have a teacher who challenges his preconceptions, only one who looks for the explanations for the conclusions he already holds.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Laugh yourself silly, you Putin apologist still looking for a reason why Russia had to invade Ukraine to kill innocent people.
America is under siege by unsaved activists seeking to fundamentally change long-held laws, beliefs, morals, and so forth to make the nation more compatible with Satan than with God.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
There's no dark side of autodidadacticism or self-education. But you do actually have to educate yourself, otherwise it's not really autodidactism. @ffreeloader read some political science. Get into political theory, political philosophy, get into liberal institutions like separation of powers, constitutionalism, rule of law, rights moral theory, judicial independence and judicial review, and civilian control of the military. Read about this stuff. Like with anything there's partisanship lurking everywhere, so keep your head up when you sniff out a masquerading Dem or Repub but largely when professional political scientists are teaching the broad strokes of their discipline, they're all basically in agreement.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
There is. One aspect is falling into confirmation bias, which is difficult for all humans to overcome. Even being aware of the possibility of confirmation bias, any of us can fall into it, as well as other biases. It's a constant battle, even for scientific research, to identify biases that could affect the outcome. None of us is immune, it's in our human natures. And when someone is 'doing their own research' for 14 hours a day, there are any number of biases that can affect the information taken in.
Here are some, but the entire study of cognitive bias is more than is necessary for this purposes of this thread, and should be in another thread if you want to follow it further. (I'm aware I'm part of this current derailment.)
A lot of people read some political science. That doesn't make them political scientists.
The problem with a lot of people today is they read something on the internet and then think they know better than those who've been studying that particular area of knowledge for decades. I've recommended it before, but Tom Nichols' book The Death of Expertise: The Campaign against Established Knowledge and Why it Matters addresses this very problem, which really went insanely bad during the pandemic, when the anti-vaxxers 'did their own research' and decided they knew better than virologists, immunologists, doctors, medical researchers etc. out there trying to save the lives of all of us.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Having worked in virology, immunology and medical research, it's easy for me to recognize that you are ignorant of the fact that there was no universal agreement on how best to "save the lives of all of us".
In my case I chose to apply the maxim "first Do no harm" and avoid medical interventions that are now proving to have been of dubious utility
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Anna, you're making it sound as if no one should read. Because it's dangerous. You do know how medieval this sounds, right?
And nothing prevents an autodidact from self learning about those things you mentioned. I know all about them, partly due to formal education, and partly due to autodidacticism.
And I have never encountered an internet troll who has truly ever read and understood and learned mainstream modern political science. I don't think it's a coincidence.
Historically autodidacts have generated a lot of very insightful ideas and analyses, as I hope and expect that you're aware. Certainly those autodidacts managed, in spite of their autodidacticism, to avoid the supposed dark side of autodidacticism. If your point is that we should be wary, well sure, I don't think anybody disagrees with that, along with being aware that even formal teachers can and do suffer from cognitive biases themselves, as you say, no one is immune.
And you didn't address my main point at all, which is that autodidacticism actually requires that you learn in the process, otherwise it is something else. By this understanding autodidacts can't be identified with those who " read something on the internet and then think they know better". That wouldn't be a correct characterization of what the term means.
And nothing prevents an autodidact from self learning about those things you mentioned. I know all about them, partly due to formal education, and partly due to autodidacticism.
And I have never encountered an internet troll who has truly ever read and understood and learned mainstream modern political science. I don't think it's a coincidence.
Historically autodidacts have generated a lot of very insightful ideas and analyses, as I hope and expect that you're aware. Certainly those autodidacts managed, in spite of their autodidacticism, to avoid the supposed dark side of autodidacticism. If your point is that we should be wary, well sure, I don't think anybody disagrees with that, along with being aware that even formal teachers can and do suffer from cognitive biases themselves, as you say, no one is immune.
And you didn't address my main point at all, which is that autodidacticism actually requires that you learn in the process, otherwise it is something else. By this understanding autodidacts can't be identified with those who " read something on the internet and then think they know better". That wouldn't be a correct characterization of what the term means.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
That's your perception, but as a life-long, avid reader myself, I'm telling you your perception is wrong. I even just recommended a book to you!
Nowhere did I say or even imply that "no one should read, because it's dangerous."
What I'm saying is a little knowledge doesn't make anyone an expert. That should be humbling to all of us who give our opinions here on a regular basis, when those opinions fall outside our educational or professional expertise.
First: no offense intended (sincerely), but I rarely address all your points because you talk so very much. So I pick one or two points and leave the rest or I'd be here all day. If you want me to answer all your points, write shorter posts.
I have no problem with self-learning, only the pitfalls of it. If you can't get that basic idea from me, I'm either explaining it poorly or you're misunderstanding me.
I gave you a chart of cognitive biases; these are human pitfalls. We're all more or less susceptible to them, so it helps to be aware of them. When someone is self-taught, and the building blocks they're using are flawed, or maybe the blocks are perfect but the method the learner/builder uses to stack them is flawed, the learner/builder may not be aware of the flaws, and they'll keep building the block tower that they see as symmetrical, when maybe it's not. And then when an expert comes along and says "your tower is asymmetrical," the learner/builder doesn't believe the expert, and says the expert doesn't know what they're talking about. (And before anyone tries to paint it that way, I'm not an expert in anything, so I'm not talking about myself when referring to experts here.)
And that's all I have to say about it in this conversation. Please reply in a separate thread, or even in my derailment thread, and I'll continue the conversation there if you're interested.
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The U.S. Justice Department this week indicted Russian oligarch Konstantin Malofeev, known as "God's Oligarch," a close ally of Russian dictator Vladimir Putin, friend of U.S. religious-right culture warriors:
www.rightwingwatch.org
US Indicts ‘God’s Oligarch,’ World Congress of Families Funder Konstantin Malofeev
They are all vile individuals with the last one being only deluded and a bit less reprehensible. I am at the point where I think risking WWIII would be worth it. The Russians need to be stopped, and sanctions are not doing it.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Their regime is immoral, and while they're a democracy on paper, an immoral regime cannot operate without a lot of immoral men helping.
Dude, think. This, times a thousand, or times a million:
Agreed! But dude, think.
Russia will be brought to its knees by the fallout from this war and the consequences of sanctions, etc. When this is over, there will only be two superpowers left in the world--the US and China.