toldailytopic: What do you think of the Tea Party movement?

[Ktoyou]

"Our constitution was made ONLY for a moral and religious people, it is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Bring back morality to our once Christian nation and I'll quit being a "Federalist" when it comes to protecting the God-given rights of the unborn.

Hamilton was a Federalist, as was Washington, now if you wish to believe Alexander Hamilton was a puritan Christian moralist, without reading his writings, it is not my task to educate you on the history of the American Revolution.

None of this is directly related to abortion, not that they would condone it. Lincoln was a Republican/ Federalist and some would say he was a bit more.

There is no reason to 'quite being a Federalist' unless you care to disassociate with them.

 

[The Graphite]

I can find nothing in this act that would protect the life of an unborn at the federal level. This act would leave that to the states. All this does is remove jurisdiction from the federal court system allowing states to permit or ban abortions at their discretion.

Cross a state line and your rights can change.

Like Ron Paul, the bill is phony.

Not only that, but his bill expressly prohibits federal judges from even ruling on the 5th and 14th amendments of the federal Constitution, something that is constitutionally explicitly their jurisdiction. If any judge has the authority to rule of the 5th and 14th amendments of the federal constitution, for crying out loud, it's a federal judge. :doh:

That is the most explicitly unconstitutional part of his well-intentioned but ill-conceived (pro-choice state-by-state) bill. The man has a catastrophically failed understanding of our Constitution and of the Bible's universal prohibition of the intentional killing of the innocent.

 

[The Graphite]

And just to be clear, Oz... No, I would not support a pro-choice bill like Ron Paul's. Never.

Most importantly, it goes against God's universal, legal prohibition of murder. And, secondarily, it is blatantly unconstitutional, explicitly contradicting the 5th and 14th amendments which disallow ANY state from having jurisdiction over whether murder can be legalized.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Hamilton was a Federalist, as was Washington, now if you wish to believe Alexander Hamilton was a puritan Christian moralist, without reading his writings, it is not my task to educate you on the history of the American Revolution.

Thanks for the history lesson. The Federalist and Anti-Federalist parties had nothing to do with moral issues of the country (they all stood on the side of God when it came to that), they dealt with the economic ones.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Federalists-vs-Anti-Federalists

Regarding Hamilton: "Hamilton, who regularly led his household in prayer, also wrote about the connection between Christianity and political freedom. He helped to form the Christian Constitutional Society. In an 1802 letter to co-founder James Bayard, he said:

"I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society,' its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.

“I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.”

He was fatally shot in a duel with Burr in July of 1804. His last words were:

I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me."
http://www.faithofourfathers.net/hamilton.html

(I kinda sorta get the feeling that he wasn't an atheist).

None of this is directly related to abortion, not that they would condone it. Lincoln was a Republican/ Federalist and some would say he was a bit more.

You're right, none of this has anything to do with abortion. By referring to me as a "Federalist", you're using the word out of context.

(Pssst...Lincoln wasn't a Founding Father).

 

[Nydhogg]

And if you think that each State somehow has the constitutional right to murder the unborn based on majority rule, that would make you a....(don't tell me, it starts with an m and ends with an r) MURDERER (and a fool when it comes to the mindset of our Founding Fathers).

Murder is also criminalized at the State level, you profound idiot.

Apparently the unborn are higher in standing than normal people that their deaths should be federal crimes while the death of anyone else is a State crime, you cretin?

I don't care for the fetuses. At all. [EDITED BECAUSE IT WAS CRUDE AND OFFENSIVE]. Anyway, Ron Paul's bill is stupid, because it strips the SCOTUS from jurisdiction on individual rights issues, paving the way for tyranny.

 

[Granite]

Thanks for the history lesson. The Federalist and Anti-Federalist parties had nothing to do with moral issues of the country (they all stood on the side of God when it came to that), they dealt with the economic ones.

They weren't parties. If you'd ever read their work for yourself you'd know that...and you're incredibly ignorant about both movements. The Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers are both available as cheap paperbacks. Pick them up and read them yourself, assuming they don't put you to sleep.

Regarding Hamilton:

Yes, regarding Hamilton: a snob and womanizer who was a monarchist at heart and champion of a centralized bank.

Why don't you read books for a change?

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Murder is also criminalized at the State level, you profound idiot.

It isn't for the unborn. (If 50 million of them could talk, they'd tell you).

Apparently the unborn are higher in standing than normal people that their deaths should be federal crimes while the death of anyone else is a State crime, you cretin?

Life has many stages, developing in the womb is one of them. Allowing them to be murdered at the State level gives them a lower level standing amongst other human beings.

I don't care for the fetuses. At all. I might even eat a fetus if it was convenient to do so.

As I recall, another TOL blogger was BANNED (I assume permanently) for joking about "barbecuing babies".

It would be nice if Knight did the same for a "spin the bottle" polytheist such as yourself.

 

[WizardofOz]

So, which section of the bill do you disagree with?

SEC. 2. FINDING AND DECLARATION. (a) Finding- The Congress finds that present day scientific evidence indicates a significant likelihood that actual human life exists from conception. (b) Declaration- Upon the basis of this finding, and in the exercise of the powers of the Congress-- (1) the Congress declares that-- (A) human life shall be deemed to exist from conception, without regard to race, sex, age, health, defect, or condition of dependency; and (B) the term `person' shall include all human life as defined in subparagraph (A); and (2) the Congress recognizes that each State has the authority to protect lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that State.

If congress rules that human life begins at conception, then abortion is murder. And, guess who's job it is to enforce murder laws now?

Um, the states. :duh:

How is that pro-choice? Are the states pro-choice in regard to laws against homicide? Are states incapable of enforcing laws against homicide?

You arguments against this bill make no sense and show a general ignorance as to what it would accomplish.

:mock:federalists

 

[kmoney]

You can be plenty smart and still be a useful idiot: look at the western academics who supported Stalin until the truth about old Uncle Joe was obvious and impossible to deny.

Perhaps.

The Tea Party movement is angry, sure, but it doesn't seem to be angry about many of the right things. And it's not angry at the right people.

What are the right things? The right people?

I think the Tea Party is on the right track with some things, but I do think it's hypocritical, or something, that this is happening now, during the Obama administration, instead of before when much of the same things were going on.

And it certainly isn't a crowd I'd like to see dominating the discussion or actually holding a position of any authority.

I'd mostly agree with this.

These folks seem stirred up, all right, but they don't seem to have very clear goals. They don't seem able to articulate what they want. And they're getting bankrolled by the same damn people who are putting their money into the GOP and the Democratic party, so it's quickly turning into a farce--especially when you get the likes of Beck and Palin involved.

Without a clear leadership, no, they don't have clear goals. It's mainly a smaller government and less government spending, but beyond that, it's up in the air.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

(2) the Congress recognizes that each State has the authority to protect lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that State.

I'd be comfortable if the words "IS REQUIRED" replaced the words "has the authority".

But the question is: how would Ron Paul, the 1988 Presidential candidate of the Libertarian Party and someone who "remains a lifetime member" of the pro-abortion party feel about it?

 

[aSeattleConserv]

They [the Federalists and Anti-Federalists] weren't parties.

The Federalist Party was led by John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, and John Marshall. It formed from the federalists who before the ratification of the constitution fought for a stronger federal government. They were opposed at that time by the anti-federalists who morphed into the Democratic-Republicans after ratification.
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/politicalparties/p/federalistparty.htm

The Anti-Federalist Party was one of the United States political party, and left a major legacy on the country by initiating the Bill of Rights. The ideological heritage of this party was continued by the Democratic-Republican Party at the start of the 19th century.
http://www.fact-index.com/a/an/anti_federalist_party.html

You really need to quit getting your information from SMUT magazines Fido.

Yes, regarding Hamilton: a snob and womanizer who was a monarchist at heart and champion of a centralized bank.

It good to see that yet another athiest again has picked and choosed morals from the Christian religion to place judgment on a "womanizing" Founding Father.

This of course coming from someone who subscribes to SMUT magazines such as Penthouse and Playboy (or is it Playgirl Fido?); defends homosexuality (i.e. something the Founding Fathers described as a "disgrace to nature") and lambastes anything that is good and decent.

Why don't you read books for a change?

Here's a good book you should read:

http://top-10-list.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Holy-Bible.jpg

The Word has it that even people like you are salvageable.

 

[Nydhogg]

It isn't for the unborn. (If 50 million of them could talk, they'd tell you).



Life has many stages, developing in the womb is one of them. Allowing them to be murdered at the State level gives them a lower level standing amongst other human beings.



As I recall, another TOL blogger was BANNED (I assume permanently) for joking about "barbecuing babies".

It would be nice if Knight did the same for a "spin the bottle" polytheist such as yourself.

I was not aware that holding embryos in high regard was mandatory for TOL membership. I didn't mean to joke about the unborn, I simply wanted to illustrate how relevant a not-yet-sentient clump of cells is in my worldview.

After fetal sentience things change (if it's sentient it's a person) and I consider abortion homicide from that point onwards.
Still, my remark was crude and uncalled for. I apologize.

I was not aware that polytheism (mine is a quite structured religion with a finite number of Gods and appropriate forms of worship, not spin-the-bottle) was a bannable offense either.


Murder is criminalized at the State level. If abortion is murder, it belongs at the State level, and not the federal level.
Your "christian libertarianism" does certainly allow for an extensive fedgov.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

I was not aware that holding embryos in high regard was mandatory for TOL membership. I didn't mean to joke about the unborn, I simply wanted to illustrate how relevant a not-yet-sentient clump of cells is in my worldview.

You can attempt to justify your "worldview" all you like. The fact is, there is a difference between preventing a pregnancy and terminating one (hence "fetal sentience" being another stage of personhood).

After fetal sentience things change (if it's sentient it's a person) and I consider abortion homicide from that point onwards.
Still, my remark was crude and uncalled for. I apologize.

There's 50 million dead human beings that were murdered in the womb because of people's "worldview"; don't apologize to us, apologize to them.

I was not aware that polytheism (mine is a quite structured religion with a finite number of Gods and appropriate forms of worship, not spin-the-bottle) was a bannable offense either.

It's just another false religion. Not bannable on TOL, but I hear tell that it will ban you from eternal life.

Murder is criminalized at the State level. If abortion is murder, it belongs at the State level, and not the federal level.

"If"? You're not even certain if abortion is murder, but you're certain where the punishment should come from "if" it is?

Your "christian libertarianism" does certainly allow for an extensive fedgov.

Pay attention Nydhogg, I'm not a libertarian; I speak out against libertarianism, all forms of it.

 

[The Graphite]

If we are to ignore the 5th and 14th amendments of the Constitution in regards to their prohibition of the legalization of murder, how about the taking of an innocent person's liberty?

Is slavery likewise a "states rights issue?" Who here would like to take the Stephen Douglas position on slavery, wherein every state can decide for itself to what extent the state gov't will protect the "right" of people to own other human beings?

 

[Granite]

I see, so a couple of links and all of the sudden some bitter west coast spinster with a badge thinks she knows a thing or two. Gee. Color me impressed. Can you tell me without google what the founders thought of political parties (or their absence)? Federalists and anti-Federalists were a movement. Not distinct political parties. If you're too ignorant, numb, or dumb to get that, there's zero help for you. Not that I think there's much anyway.

It good to see that yet another athiest again has picked and choosed morals from the Christian religion to place judgment on a "womanizing" Founding Father.

"It good"? "Picked and choosed"? Where did you grow up? A trailer park? But to clarify: yes, Hamilton was a womanizer, and adulterer to boot. He was a monarchist, snob, and generally not much of a fellow to admire. Again--if you actually read books instead of websites, you'd know this.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

If we are to ignore the 5th and 14th amendments of the Constitution in regards to their prohibition of the legalization of murder, how about the taking of an innocent person's liberty?

Is slavery likewise a "states rights issue?" Who here would like to take the Stephen Douglas position on slavery, wherein every state can decide for itself to what extent the state gov't will protect the "right" of people to own other human beings?

I was just listening to a mutli billionaire atheist talk (nonchalantly) about terminating the life of the sick and dying in their last 3 months of life so that we could "employ more teachers".

This worthless excuse for a human being is also a HUGE contributor to Planned Parenthood.
http://www.visiontoamerica.org/story/bill-gates-pushes-death-panels.html

Plain and simply put Graphite, we're battling evil.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Speaking of atheists:

Stick to the straight and narrow Fido. I've seen your kind, they don't do well in prison.

 

[Skavau]

Speaking of atheists:

Stick to the straight and narrow Fido. I've seen your kind, they don't do well in prison.

You really do walk into these things, don't you Baldrick? Click here.

 

[Granite]

Speaking of atheists:

Stick to the straight and narrow Fido. I've seen your kind, they don't do well in prison.

You're a pathetic excuse for a human being and a completely rotten, depraved, and twisted waste of skin.

 

[Traditio]

I think they're all uneducated hicks. Note, I'm not saying anything about their politics. They just come off as uneducated hicks.