toldailytopic: The Catholics: what did they get right, and what did they get wrong?

[Cruciform]

Praying to Mary?

It's important to note that we do not "pray" to Mary or the Saints in the same sense in which we pray to God alone. We recognize two distinct meanings of the term "to pray." We only "pray" to Mary in the sense of asking for her intercession (that is, asking her to pray for us), just as we would ask for the intercession of any other Christian in our lives. For more info:

Praying to the Saints
"Any Friend of God Is a Friend of Mine"
All in the Family: The Communion of Saints​

What does "Hail Mary" mean?

It's the greeting of the angel to Mary in the Gospel of Luke:

The Rosary
Not in Vain: Repetition and the Rosary​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[sky.]

It's important to note that we do not "pray" to Mary or the Saints in the same sense in which we pray to God alone. We recognize two distinct meanings of the term "to pray." We only "pray" to Mary in the sense of asking for her intercession (that is, asking her to pray for us), just as we would ask for the intercession of any other Christian in our lives. For more info:

Yeah but the Holy Spirit is supposed to intercede for us. Why bring in more people? Does the Holy Spirit need a break?

 

[Cruciform]

Yeah but the Holy Spirit is supposed to intercede for us. Why bring in more people? Does the Holy Spirit need a break?

The sources cited in Post #141 address that question, as well as any others you're likely to have. God bless.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[sky.]

I'll check it out. I don't know why I need to shore it up with Mary and the "Saints" though.

 

[sky.]

Don't you think praying is a form of worship? The Bible tells us not to worship angels how then can we pray to "saints'". Who are you refering to as "saints"?

Revelation 22:8
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

 

[Aimiel]

Go ahead and post your proof for this claim. (How about just one example?)

"Holy Mary, Mother of God: Pray for us sinners. Now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

That goes without saying, and Catholics affirm the same. The question is what human agent or agency possesses the inherent doctrinal authority to determine for both of us which one of us has the truth?

Jesus said that we'd recognize Christians by their love for the brethren. I don't see that love in catholics. I see hatred.

Maybe the things that you think we need to "get" aren't IT.

But: they are.

So then, you can't establish that your opinions are right, and that therefore the opinions of others are wrong.

I don't have to, The Bible does that just fine.

Then no one should experience any compulsion to follow your theological preferences to the exclusion of their own, should they.(?)

Nope. They should follow Christ, as I've said all along. :duh:

 

[Sheila B]

I'll check it out. I don't know why I need to shore it up with Mary and the "Saints" though.

It's all about the Unity. We create one new man in Christ. Not lots of little ones, but "one new man", bringing Christ to a mature "full stature".

 

[Sheila B]

Constantine, took Paul's unique gospel (gospel of uncircumcision) and took Peter's gospel of circumcision, the given the 12 by Jesus, put them in a blender and hit mix. Giving the world its first "denomination" that fails to rightly divide the Word of truth.

The ebionites (circumcision) are older. James was the leader, even if he wasn't supposed to be. But they do rightly divide the Word.

An excellent example of why Jesus has the government on His shoulder, holds the Key of David in His hand, and also shares that government here below through the Keyholder, Peter. So it is possible to know Truth from error.

 

[bucksplasher]

As Thurber

As Thurber

nor to reason and logic

shows in my favorite cartoon...TOUCHE...as one fencer lops off the head of his unready opponent. tWINs

 

[Aimiel]

It's all about the Unity. We create one new man in Christ. Not lots of little ones, but "one new man", bringing Christ to a mature "full stature".

One day we will be mature. Until that day we will have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers who are anointed by God to do His Good Pleasure.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 'till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[bucksplasher]

Don't you think praying is a form of worship? The Bible tells us not to worship angels how then can we pray to "saints'". Who are you refering to as "saints"?

Revelation 22:8
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

the secret word is "worship".

If he had fallen to his knees to "thank" the angel for the showing there would have been no admonishment.

We "thank" Mary for her "yes" to God and as you know the angel offered her "thanks" for her holiness. tWINs

 

[sky.]

So you think Mary did God a favor by saying "yes"? So in return we owe some dept of gratitude to Mary?

Do you say the Rosary on your knees?

 

[sky.]

What is are the "mysteries of the rosary" ?

 

[bucksplasher]

So you think Mary did God a favor by saying "yes"? So in return we owe some dept of gratitude to Mary?

Do you say the Rosary on your knees?

Yes to one...No to the other...But I generally pray the rosary before the Blessed Sacrament and so expect a dispensation for not saying it on my knees. tWINs

 

[sky.]

Luke 1:38

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

Revelation 22:9


8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

 

[zippy2006]

Luke 1:38

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

Revelation 22:9


8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

What is your definition of worship? Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? Were you therefore worshipping them? If you ask them to pray for you while your knees are touching the ground, would you therefore be worshipping them?

 

[sky.]

What is your definition of worship? Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? Were you therefore worshipping them? If you ask them to pray for you while your knees are touching the ground, would you therefore be worshipping them?

I have never asked a person who is not alive to pray for me. My definition of praying means a form of worship. The highest form of worship.

 

[sky.]

When I ask someone to pray for me. They pray to God the Father for me. Not Mary or a 'saint'. There is a difference.

 

[zippy2006]

I have never asked a person who is not alive to pray for me.

Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Who is more alive, a person here on earth or Isaac and Jacob in Heaven?

My definition of praying means a form of worship. The highest form of worship.

We Catholics do not worship Mary, we ask her to pray for us. If someone says they pray to Mary then they have a different definition of prayer than you do.

When I ask someone to pray for me. They pray to God the Father for me. Not Mary or a 'saint'. There is a difference.

When I ask Mary to pray for me, she goes to her Son, Who tends to receive her requests well.

John 2:3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”

 

[sky.]

Well you can pray to Mary or the "saints" and ask them to ask the Son who would then ask the Father but I'm not going through the side door.

I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.