toldailytopic: Should being diagnosed insane excuse capital punishment?

[ragTagblues]

Yes, justice is served. Justice has a strict definition: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.

Really? Brilliant, tomorrow I'm going to steal your car; but don't worry I will replace it with one of equal value, you won't mind will you? You may not like the color and it may be hatch back where you were driving a 4x4; but hey an eye for an eye an all that . . . .

Do you realize how ludicrous a statement that really is?

It helps the society.

Really? have you asked them how they feel about it, how much better are their life's for knowing that someone who kills your daughter will be given the chair . . . .

I think it rots society that we can allow death as a form of punishment.

:rotfl: You think that capital punishment creates an increase in vigilante justice? :rotfl:
History disagrees with you.

I never said vigilante justice. How can you sit there and say that murder - the pre-meditated death of a person by another - is wrong and still support the death penalty?

what kind of message is that sending to the ever more increasingly violent generations? It's not lowered crime for sure, so it isn't a deterrent, so what other reason is there for the death penalty? What message is it sending to would be murderers?

Romans 13:1-4 1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.​

[/QUOTE]

So will all that took place in a bodged court hearing resulting in the innocent murder of someone be judged appropriately by your god? Will the man who gives the lethal injection burn for eternal damnation? Will there be forgiveness for someone who simply flicked a switch to put the lights out? Or will they just hang in hell?

 

[genuineoriginal]

C'mon, man. Take a little responsibility. In five seconds I googled "manslaughter' and got this:

Manslaughter is a legal term for the killing of a human being, in a manner considered by law as less culpable than murder. The distinction between murder and manslaughter is said to have first been made by the Ancient Athenian lawmaker Dracon in the 7th century BC.[1]
The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill – a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought – or the knowledge that one's actions are likely to result in death; manslaughter, on the other hand, requires a lack of any prior intention to kill or create a deadly situation.

So, in the case of Breivik, the topic of this thread, he did not lack any prior intention to kill or create a deadly situation, and knew that his actions were likely to result in death. He is a murderer, and manslaughter does not apply.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Really? Brilliant, tomorrow I'm going to steal your car; but don't worry I will replace it with one of equal value, you won't mind will you? You may not like the color and it may be hatch back where you were driving a 4x4; but hey an eye for an eye an all that . . . .

Sorry, for theft it is replacement plus 20%

 

[genuineoriginal]

Really? have you asked them how they feel about it, how much better are their life's for knowing that someone who kills your daughter will be given the chair . . . .

Ask the parents that watch the executions to make sure their daughter's killer is put to death.

 

[genuineoriginal]

How can you sit there and say that murder - the pre-meditated death of a person by another - is wrong and still support the death penalty?

You don't know the difference between guilty and innocent?

 

[PureX]

So, in the case of Breivik, the topic of this thread, he did not lack any prior intention to kill or create a deadly situation, and knew that his actions were likely to result in death. He is a murderer, and manslaughter does not apply.

I would have convicted him of mass murder, for exactly the reasons you stated. And I would put him to death if it were reasonable to presume that he would kill again given the chance.

Even though his mental illness may have led him to want to kill for some irrational reason, he CHOSE to act. And because he did so he is guilty of murder.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I am discussing the topic of whether insanity is an excuse for blowing people up and shooting them.

I get the impression that other people on this thread are discussing whether the ADA should start suing shop owners for not providing loaded semi-automatic pistols for the criminally insane that want to enter their shops.

Uh, riiiight, cos opposing execution for the mentally ill naturally leads to giving them firearms...

 

[ragTagblues]

Sorry, for theft it is replacement plus 20%

I thought you said anything past that was no longer justice? So what precisely are we talking about now?

Ask the parents that watch the executions to make sure their daughter's killer is put to death.

They will probably would say, with the exception of the death of their daughter, it was one of the most horrific experiences they have ever gone through. It is not easy to watch someone die and certainly not helpful to anyone.

 

[ragTagblues]

You don't know the difference between guilty and innocent?

I certainly do, I just don't see how the death penalty isn't classed as murder

 

[genuineoriginal]

what kind of message is that sending to the ever more increasingly violent generations? It's not lowered crime for sure, so it isn't a deterrent, so what other reason is there for the death penalty? What message is it sending to would be murderers?

You seem to be thinking of the current system where a person can sit on death row for 20 years before being executed behind closed doors. That system sends the message to would be murderers that they may be able to get away with killing.

Guess what message the Roman Empire sent out to would be thieves and murders with the public executions displayed prominently at major intersections near the entrance to the cities?

 

[genuineoriginal]

I thought you said anything past that was no longer justice? So what precisely are we talking about now?

We were talking about justice for bodily harm, then you changed the topic to justice for the theft of personal property. Let's just stick to justice for murder, which is a life for a life.

 

[ragTagblues]

You seem to be thinking of the current system where a person can sit on death row for 20 years before being executed behind closed doors. That system sends the message to would be murderers that they may be able to get away with killing.

Guess what message the Roman Empire sent out to would be thieves and murders with the public executions displayed prominently at major intersections near the entrance to the cities?

Yet it still happens in fact, yet things like gang warfare are more on the rise then ever before? It doesn't work as a deterrent and doesn't work as a solution so why have it?

 

[ragTagblues]

We were talking about justice for bodily harm, then you changed the topic to justice for the theft of personal property. Let's just stick to justice for murder, which is a life for a life.

Regardless of the crime justice is justice and the law is the law, you were the one suggesting everybody needed to be to judged by the same standard and punished equally.

 

[genuineoriginal]

They will probably would say, with the exception of the death of their daughter, it was one of the most horrific experiences they have ever gone through. It is not easy to watch someone die and certainly not helpful to anyone.

Texas Executes a Killer of Two as the Victims' Family Watches

Leo Jenkins was executed today while relatives of the brother and sister he killed watched from a few feet away, the first time Texas has allowed the survivors of murder victims to witness a lethal injection.

Later, Linda Kelley, the mother of the victims, Mark Kelley and Kara Kelley Voss, spoke to reporters.

This was not difficult," Mrs. Kelley said for the family. "I'm glad that he's off this earth. I know where Leo Jenkins is right now. And it's really low. And I feel good about that. This is justice in a big way. Believe me, it was served tonight."​

 

[ragTagblues]

Texas Executes a Killer of Two as the Victims' Family Watches

Leo Jenkins was executed today while relatives of the brother and sister he killed watched from a few feet away, the first time Texas has allowed the survivors of murder victims to witness a lethal injection.

Later, Linda Kelley, the mother of the victims, Mark Kelley and Kara Kelley Voss, spoke to reporters.

This was not difficult," Mrs. Kelley said for the family. "I'm glad that he's off this earth. I know where Leo Jenkins is right now. And it's really low. And I feel good about that. This is justice in a big way. Believe me, it was served tonight."​

That may be said in that moment, but the satisfaction of revenge will wear off and they will be back to square one grieving, scared and anxious.

No good would have come from it for that family, their lives are not improved or enlightened for it. They do not value the life of a murder at all, so by the the standards of society it's not an eye for an eye it's a 't' for a tooth. Nothing was gained, everything was lost.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Regardless of the crime justice is justice and the law is the law, you were the one suggesting everybody needed to be to judged by the same standard and punished equally.

You are right, I should have checked the standard I used for the proper punishment for theft. It was not return of the stolen property plus 20%. It is return of twice what was stolen, or up to five times what was stolen if the stolen item is no longer in his posession.

Exodus 22 1If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. 2If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. 3If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 4If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ***, or sheep; he shall restore double.​

I think stealing a car is equivalent to stealing an ox, so you can return my car plus another, or you can give me five instead.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That may be said in that moment, but the satisfaction of revenge will wear off and they will be back to square one grieving, scared and anxious.

No good would have come from it for that family, their lives are not improved or enlightened for it. They do not value the life of a murder at all, so by the the standards of society it's not an eye for an eye it's a 't' for a tooth. Nothing was gained, everything was lost.

Their experience trumps your theory any day.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Yet it still happens in fact, yet things like gang warfare are more on the rise then ever before? It doesn't work as a deterrent and doesn't work as a solution so why have it?

Yes, our current system does not work as a deterrent.
One of the reasons it doesn't work is because INSANE murderers are not being put to death.

 

[ragTagblues]

You are right, I should have checked the standard I used for the proper punishment for theft. It was not return of the stolen property plus 20%. It is return of twice what was stolen, or up to five times what was stolen if the stolen item is no longer in his posession.

Exodus 22 1If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. 2If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. 3If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 4If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ***, or sheep; he shall restore double.​

I think stealing a car is equivalent to stealing an ox, so you can return my car plus another, or you can give me five instead.

Ahhh but your using a standard of law I don't adhere to, which is relevant I'll grant you, and further this renders the eye for an eye stuff both a false hood and inaccurate?

 

[ragTagblues]

Their experience trumps your theory any day.

Not really, they still don't have their brother etc. back and still would have lost far more then the very little that was gained from it.