toldailytopic: Reincarnation: do you believe in it?

[Shasta]

deja vu over and over again

deja vu over and over again

The real question is not so much if reincarnation exists but why should it? This is what changes the belief from an entertaining role playing fantasy to a serious pursuit truth and, even more, what effect such a phenomenon has on how I live. Evil would rejoice knowing that no matter how many they torture, abuse and slaughter their fellow humans they can go out the exit of death and immediately return to the entrance of reincarnation. What a paradise for evil! What a hell for good.

The millions of people who have believed in reincarnation over time thought this through and realize that it is not a game. To them endless births and rebirth soul means that all the suffering of their lives are repeated forever. Even suicide cannot put an end to it.

At least their religion has a sort of purpose. Over many lives they MIGHT through good works get their exit ticket but it will cost them everything. Desire must end, individuality snuffed out. In the meantime, everything is illusion.

Reincarnation is no game and if it does exist (and scripturally it does not) then you should not look forward to playing the game.

 

[Shasta]

deja vu over and over again

deja vu over and over again

excuse me for the repetition of post box It seemed to fit the subject

 

[csuguy]

While I wouldn't rule out the possibility that God can reincarnate (John the Baptists?) people, I would not say that people in general are reincarnated.

 

[Shasta]

More and more people are being born every day but despite this there is no empirical evidence that as a whole we are becoming less sinful and which we would expect if reincarnation were true. India, which has the largest population of practicing Hindus is one of the most impoverished nations in the world, in some ways BECAUSE of their belief in reincarnation.

If there is always another chance and there are no consequences there is no pressing need to change in the present life. People do not necessarily improve when given longer lives.. The Antedeluvians were given very long lives but they did not do any better in 900 years than we do in 80. They did, in fact much worse. Living through ages of reincarnation would have no better result. The person would still make the same choices, without the advantage of at least remembering the outcome of their previous sins.

I could imagine characters in that movie doing anything they want, spending time learning, sleeping, overeating committing acts of violence knowing that then the alarm clock ran they could start over. Such a situation would be much more likely to produce a very wicked person than a good one. Of course, since as a Christian I do not believe in the innate goodness of man I am fairly certain about where that experiment would end.

History testifies to the fact that progress in the world is not inevitable. Societies rise and fall. Peace order and justice exist for a relatively short periods before giving way to violence and oppression. For every monster that leaves another one comes. Read Ecclesiastes. It is all in there

From reading your posts I gather that you are a Christian. Remember that the Master never said things would get better and better either on the individual or societal level. He said that the majority of mankind would not want the truth Matt 7:13-14. I recommend that you listen to Him rather than Bill Murray.

the movie 'groundhog day' convinced me
what a great movie
he kept coming back until he got it right
and
that makes you wonder
if
when you come back, there are fewer good people
because
more and more are finally getting it right
then
what you come back to is going to look more like hell

 

[The Horn]

Reincarnation makes much more sense than the Christian belief in one life with only one chance either to accept Christ as your personal savior or to be doomed to eternal hellfire.
The Christian belief is actually monstrously unfair, (no offense meant to Christians here).
With reincarnation, there is no eternal damnation, and every one will eventually reach perfection and be free from the wheel of birth and death on earth. Karma sees to it that all our unwell acts bring misfortune,which eventually teaches us to cease our misdeeds,as well as the good fortune which comes from our good acts.
Thus, we have no one but ourselves to blame for our misfortunes.
Nothing happens to us by mere chance. It's all cause and effect.

 

[John Mortimer]

Reincarnation makes much more sense than the Christian belief in one life with only one chance either to accept Christ as your personal savior or to be doomed to eternal hellfire.

Of course it does.

The Christian belief is actually monstrously unfair, (no offense meant to Christians here).

Why NOT offend them? They DESERVE offense of the vilest kind, for they are vile.

With reincarnation, there is no eternal damnation, and every one will eventually reach perfection and be free from the wheel of birth and death on earth.

Sorry mate, but that's not true.

Karma sees to it that all our unwell acts bring misfortune,which eventually teaches us to cease our misdeeds,

...the potential, that is......... many Christians will perish in hell.

as well as the good fortune which comes from our good acts.
Thus, we have no one but ourselves to blame for our misfortunes.
Nothing happens to us by mere chance. It's all cause and effect.

:up:

 

[freelight]

Learning more on the subject..........

Learning more on the subject..........

No. I haven't seen much on the topic. It would be interesting to see someone explain or defend it. :think:

I would have thought most veteran TOL'ers were familiar with my charter thread on the topic. One can go there to get a fair overview of the various schools on the topic from different cultures and traditions, besides the basic philosophical and metaphysical explanations of the process itself -

Reincarnation

See also Traditio's attempt Against Reincarnation.

To add to previous commentaries and the thread-title quest-ion,....I would say I do believe in some kind of 'rebirth' of the soul and the progression of 'multiple life experiences' which may include traditional and non-traditional descriptions of 'reincarnation' among the various schools. I remain open in my research on the subject and am not necessarily dogmatic over such, continuing to learn.

I also cover similarities between 'reincarnation' and 'resurrection' in Guracam's thread Here.

Those really interested in the subject must invest the time to research all that is involved.


pj

 

[freelight]

karma

karma

Reincarnation makes much more sense than the Christian belief in one life with only one chance either to accept Christ as your personal savior or to be doomed to eternal hellfire.
The Christian belief is actually monstrously unfair, (no offense meant to Christians here).

Yes,....referring to the typical assumption of such posed by some modern evangelicals which doesnt take into account the mercy or justice of 'God' in the eternal/infinite context of the soul's innate potential and purpose of eternal progression and perfection.

With reincarnation, there is no eternal damnation, and every one will eventually reach perfection and be free from the wheel of birth and death on earth.

As John shared earlier, this is not necessarily taught by all schools, for some souls may choose the 'second death', which is an actual soul-death/disintegration....where that soul suffers a final death/de-struction. However, I usually hold to a more universalist perspective, that according to the Law of Progress and the inherent evolutional nature of life itself, that most all souls continue to develop/unfold their true potential and purpose of existence. It is reasoned that with 'freedom of choice',...a soul could choose life or death and within these venues,...the full potentials and powers thereof. - therefore,....with such freedom...a soul might choose utter destruction, death, oblivion. - likewise the full opulence of life avails for those who choose such.

Karma sees to it that all our unwell acts bring misfortune,which eventually teaches us to cease our misdeeds,as well as the good fortune which comes from our good acts.
Thus, we have no one but ourselves to blame for our misfortunes.
Nothing happens to us by mere chance. It's all cause and effect.

The universal law of karma (law of compensation) appropriates all, at least in the conditional realms of existence. Only that which is beyond any conditioning ....is free of karma.

As an end-note:

"After God gave karma to us, He could finally retire."

-Gandhi




pj

 

[freelight]

consequences.....now or later.......

consequences.....now or later.......

If there is always another chance and there are no consequences there is no pressing need to change in the present life.

The fact is, there are consequences.....which is what the law of karma proves. The seeds you sow...may take a while to sprout and manifest their effects (in whatever way)......but you will reap the harvest in due time. In the NOW of every moment,...freedom of choice presents itself,....and the nature of each thought, word, impression, act...bears its own fruit. (cause/effect...action/reaction).

Love by nature gives 'opportunities' for learning, growth, progress.



pj

 

[freelight]

Taoist views........

Taoist views........

Hey! As long as we are on the topic of regeneration, anyone familiar with Taoism?:chew:

Taoism

We're also continuing commentary-dialogue on the Tao Te Ching in the above thread. Taoist views on 'reincarnation' are somewhat more fluid than other eastern religious views since all things spring from the Tao and dissolve back into it, so birth, death, rebirth are all natural aspects of the movement of the Whole. Embodiments arise and fall back into the natural flow of Nature merging back therein.

Reincarnation in Taoism

Reincarnation is a teaching hard to find in the aphorisms of the Tao-te Ching (6th century BC), so it must have appeared later in Taoism. Although it is not specified what reincarnates, something has to pass from one life to another. An important scripture of Taoism, the Chuang Tzu (4th century BC), states:

"Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point. Existence without limitation is space. Continuity without a starting point is time. There is birth, there is death, there is issuing forth, there is entering in. That through which one passes in and out without seeing its form, that is the Portal of God" (Chuang Tzu 23).

- Source

pj

 

[Shasta]

And when a person goes through all the cycles of birth and finally reaches perfection who or what are they? Do they have personality? Do they have individuality?

As to outcomes and consequences the "Law of Karma" can justify passive acceptance of inequality. This is the justification for the creation of the castes in India. The lower casts were less developed in their journey towards Nirvana, maybe because of bad choices they had made in previous lives. To deprive them of suffering might mean keeping them from learning and ultimately progressing in the next life. Maybe I could add to my store of good works by helping them. Maybe I should let them suffer. Either choice is equally valid. "Who sinned - this man or his parents that he should be born blind?" Jesus was asked. If He had believed in reincarnation and the Law of Karma He might have said "this man sinned (in a previous life)"

Yes, each moment a choice presents itself. That is a good way to say it.

The fact is, there are consequences.....which is what the law of karma proves. The seeds you sow...may take a while to sprout and manifest their effects (in whatever way)......but you will reap the harvest in due time. In the NOW of every moment,...freedom of choice presents itself,....and the nature of each thought, word, impression, act...bears its own fruit. (cause/effect...action/reaction).

Love by nature gives 'opportunities' for learning, growth, progress.



pj

 

[freelight]

measurements......

measurements......

And when a person goes through all the cycles of birth and finally reaches perfection who or what are they? Do they have personality? Do they have individuality?

Hi Shasta,

These are good questions handled differently by various schools of thought - if soul-emobodiments are for the exploration of growth and experience (learning) then logically incarnations will continue as long as such are useful or essential to the soul, at least as such can be acquired most effectively within a material world. Individuality as a 'soul' or 'person' may continue for eternity in union with 'God'(who also exists as a Divine Person-ality)...or the soul may somehow merge into the Supreme Being (Brahman) losing some sense of its 'individuality' as such is outshined in the Radiance of the Supreme. - viewpoints vary concerning the dimensions of such, within the context of that which has no dimension.

As to outcomes and consequences the "Law of Karma" can justify passive acceptance of inequality. This is the justification for the creation of the castes in India. The lower casts were less developed in their journey towards Nirvana, maybe because of bad choices they had made in previous lives.

The caste system is slowly being revisualized as more ancient vedic traditions meld into a more perfect synthesis better coordinating with the spiritual needs of the people in modern times. Revelation of truth is progressive while its kernel remains the same, however its forms may change in the unfolding of space and time. While karma has its place, there is also the transcending law of love which absolves sin and carries one forward in grace.

To deprive them of suffering might mean keeping them from learning and ultimately progressing in the next life. Maybe I could add to my store of good works by helping them. Maybe I should let them suffer. Either choice is equally valid.

Nevertheless, wisdom and love could dictate your feelings and behavior towards them.

"Who sinned - this man or his parents that he should be born blind?" Jesus was asked. If He had believed in reincarnation and the Law of Karma He might have said "this man sinned (in a previous life)"

Jesus was probably well aquainted with reincarnation, being a common belief of his times, going back centuries....as well as teaching such (of course this is debatable). - that the disciples asked the question shows they knew of the concept of 'rebirth'. In any case, (if souls reincarnate or not)....any healing reveals the work of 'God' or 'Nature' in bringing the soul back into Harmony with its Source.

Yes, each moment a choice presents itself. That is a good way to say it.

And wonderful it is that as long as one is conscious and able to choose...the open window of future possibilities and potentials avail themselves for that soul to experience.

Addendum: I think a pivotal issue here is the question of what part or aspect of a 'soul' continues on and what dies or disintegrates upon physical death, and how 'karma' affects or conditions such. Still exploring these :surf:



pj

 

[Shasta]

These are good questions handled differently by various schools of thought - if soul-emobodiments are for the exploration of growth and experience (learning) then logically incarnations will continue as long as such are useful or essential to the soul, at least as such can be acquired most effectively within a material world. Individuality as a 'soul' or 'person' may continue for eternity in union with 'God'(who also exists as a Divine Person-ality)...or the soul may somehow merge into the Supreme Being (Brahman) losing some sense of its 'individuality' as such is outshined in the Radiance of the Supreme. - viewpoints vary concerning the dimensions of such, within the context of that which has no dimension.

Jesus was probably well aquainted with reincarnation, being a common belief of his times, going back centuries....as well as teaching such (of course this is debatable). - that the disciples asked the question shows they knew of the concept of 'rebirth'. In any case, (if souls reincarnate or not)....any healing reveals the work of 'God' or 'Nature' in bringing the soul back into Harmony with its Source.

When the disciples asked Jesus "who sinned this man or his parents..." it is more reasonable to assume that they, being Jewish, were referring to the scriptures (Leviticus 26:39-42) which people tended to use arbitrarily against individuals(people being generally judgmental).
Jesus says that in this in this particular instance the man was not responsible.

Everyone does not bring about what they deal with, not in this life and even less in some other life when they do not even have the gift of remembering and reflecting on it. Often it is simply nature, which is in a very bad state of disrepair. For all the wonderful things in creation there is an equal if not greater weight of futility and suffering. Mostly though it is the cold indifference. If nature is a god then it is a very cruel and indifferent one, not any god I would choose to serve.

Addendum:[/B] I think a pivotal issue here is the question of what part or aspect of a 'soul' continues on and what dies or disintegrates upon physical death, and how 'karma' affects or conditions such. Still exploring these :surf:

I think it makes all the difference in the world if a soul, disintegrates, is judged or is reincarnated. We live according to our beliefs about the subject.

Tell me, and this goes for anyone participating in the discussion, what makes you believe in reincarnation? I can see why the idea is appealing to you but is your conviction of its truth based on that? Is it based on some personal revelation? I have known many who get their intel from psychics who tell them hat the junkie they saw last week was a reincarnation of their dear old Aunt Mae (who, as it turned out was really not so nice after all). Actually they would never say anything like that. If we thought Aunt Mae was good, they will affirm it. I have noticed that when they tell people who they were in the last life they were rarely just some average joe with a boring job.


pj[/QUOTE]

 

[freelight]

facets of the soul.........

facets of the soul.........

When the disciples asked Jesus "who sinned this man or his parents..." it is more reasonable to assume that they, being Jewish, were referring to the scriptures (Leviticus 26:39-42) which people tended to use arbitrarily against individuals(people being generally judgmental).

Quite possible.

Jesus says that in this in this particular instance the man was not responsible.

Yet nevertheless,...while Jesus said neither of them sinned, we still have the mystery of why some are born feeble or disabled in some way. - so it still brings in the possibility of some souls suffering on account of its own past sins or that of his ancestors, that is...if this principle of 'sins' passing down family lines is true, having its effects.

At the least, the verse indicates that reincarnation 'could' have been referenced here.

Everyone does not bring about what they deal with, not in this life and even less in some other life when they do not even have the gift of remembering and reflecting on it.

Some past-life regression therapy seems to indicate that some 'memories' can be recalled that do help some people cope with or solve some of the mysteries of their so called conditions and behaviors, so that a 'tie' appears to exist psychologically within such soul-memories, whether this is the soul's own experiences or it is drawing from a psychic memory-complex of some kind (soul-group or collective consciousness). - a matter of further research.

Often it is simply nature, which is in a very bad state of disrepair. For all the wonderful things in creation there is an equal if not greater weight of futility and suffering. Mostly though it is the cold indifference. If nature is a god then it is a very cruel and indifferent one, not any god I would choose to serve.

Yet 'Nature' appears to conduct itself according to certain laws and principles, however deficient or 'fallen' these might seem from a higher perfect divine law,....yet 'Nature' has its origin in 'God' and is it not sustained by 'God'? As far as 'serving' anything or anyone,...universal laws still maintain themselves in their own domain, by their own consistencies. Its assumed that 'God' maintains, sustains and governs all that exists.

I think it makes all the difference in the world if a soul, disintegrates, is judged or is reincarnated. We live according to our beliefs about the subject.

Of course. My point was concerning our knowledge of what aspects of the soul is preserved and what parts are subject to disintegration. - this is vital in our assessment of the possibility and mechanics of 'rebirth'. Whether one believes in a one-time judgement, or many judgments or 'life-reviews' inbetween lives, the soul is still judging itself more or less in the light of eternal laws and divine standards, with love and grace guiding it along its way.

Tell me, and this goes for anyone participating in the discussion, what makes you believe in reincarnation? I can see why the idea is appealing to you but is your conviction of its truth based on that? Is it based on some personal revelation?

I recognize 'rebirth' as a philosophical concept of the continuation of the soul thru many life-experiments, so maintain such in its allegorical context, a complex of embodiments, consciousness learning thru such individual journeys, developing thru such invest-ments. I've had some confirmations of some past-life ventures and vocations, which do resonate with my deepest interests and inclincations. - these might qualify as 'revelations'.

I have known many who get their intel from psychics who tell them hat the junkie they saw last week was a reincarnation of their dear old Aunt Mae (who, as it turned out was really not so nice after all). Actually they would never say anything like that. If we thought Aunt Mae was good, they will affirm it. I have noticed that when they tell people who they were in the last life they were rarely just some average joe with a boring job.

Well,....I dont buy or advocate contacting any 'fly by night telephone psychic', but there are valid, integrous counselors and therapists out there who specialize in past-life-regression, hypnosis therapy, and other healing modalities, etc....which assists some persons in dealing with traumas, obsessions, and other problems which appears to relate to some past-experience, something at a deeper subconscious level.

Past life regression therapy



pj