toldailytopic: Is belief in the trinity necessary for salvation?

[oatmeal]

He is greater at the level of person not nature.

God is greater than all.

Take it or leave it.

 

[oatmeal]

Yes.

John 8:24 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

There is no He in the greek in this verse, it literally says If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

I AM is the name for God given to moses when moses asked God who to tell the hebrew people, sent him to them.

Exodus 3:14 4 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Later in John 8:58 Christ says this:

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Jesus directly called Himself the same I AM speaking to moses.

So yes, according to Christ Himself, you must believe that He is God, or you will die in your sins.

I am,

are you?

 

[Krsto]

That's like saying, that since the atonement was accomplished 2000 years ago, no one was saved before it happened. The Creed solidified what was being taught for centuries.

Well then, you should be able to show me where someone taught it between 100 and 150 AD (prior to Justin Martyr).

Problem is, there wasn't anyone teaching trinitarianism prior to Justin Martyr, and even he wasn't exactly trinitarian.

 

[oatmeal]

They are all divine, and so are we. To be divine, is to be one with God. No separate-appearing individual is God. And yet, our deepest identity is God, and we and "The Father" are one. They stoned Jesus for saying that, and he replied, in effect, so are you, so why do you stone me? That is the only way to read that verse that makes any sense.

And I salute you for talking some sense to the trinitarians.

I had to read what you wrote several times, I think I agree in general with what you are saying.

oatmeal

 

[Angel4Truth]

I am,

are you?

Taken to mocking God now?

 

[Gurucam]

While there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, it is not necessary to have a belief in the trinity or even be aware of the Trinity, to be saved and/or delivered.

The Father is God. The son is Truth or the mysteries of God's kingdom also called Jesus. The Holy Ghost is the Force or Spirit of Truth, also called the Spirit of Jesus.

The Truth or the mysteries of God's kingdom came from God. This is not every thing that is God. God is a lot more. Truth is simply that which came from God which relates to this creation of which humans are a part. Therefore Truth or Jesus is our Lord (but not our God).

Truth or Jesus or the mysteries of God's kingdom is the only begotten son of God, as far as humans are concerned. This is because Truth or Jesus or the mysteries of God's kingdom is the first thing and only thing that came from God that is related to humans.

The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth which pervades and underlie all things in the creation and so created and now sustains the the creation. It is the urging and/or glue which keeps the creation in its life sustaining state.

Salvation and deliverance:

It is necessary to know Truth directly and intuitively from the Spirit of Truth through one's own heart and be led into all of one's works, by this Truth in order to be saved and delivered. One does not have to have an intellectual understating of anything in order to discern and be led into one's works, by this Spirit. All that is required is that one has faith in precisely what this Spirit has in mind for one to pray for, say and do, as discerned within one's own heart and so be led unconditionally into one's works, by precisely what this Spirit has in mind for one to pray for, say and do, as discerned in this manner. This is intuited. It come to one's awareness through the faculties of one's spirit. These are intuitions. What this Spirit has in mind for one to pray for, say and do does not come to us through our natural man or carnal side. This does not come to us from physically hearing and/or physically reading the words in scriptures. This come to us through the faculties of our spirit (i.e. intuitions). (re. 1 Corinthians: 2 verse: 14).

The simple unconditional obedience to precisely what this Spirit has in mind for one to pray for say and do, is what it takes to be saved and delivered. What the Spirit has in mind for one to pray for, say and do as discerned live, direct and intuitively, in real time, all the time is precisely what is God's individualized will for one, in real time, all the time.

By being led into all of one's works in real time, all the time, by precisely what this Spirit has in mind for one to pray for, say and do, as discerned within one's own heart, in real time all the time, one does the will of God.

This is described as obedience onto righteousness. Like Abraham and Rehab, when one is under this system one does not get sin even when one transgress the law. In fact when, under unconditional obedience to the mind of the Spirit as discerned in this manner, one transgress the Ten Commandments, one is glorified by God as was the case with Abraham and Rehab.
This is how to be delivered from sin. This is how to be delivered from the curse of the Ten Commandments.​

 

[Gurucam]

God can't be defined or described. Experience God for yourself.

Indeed God is not known or knowable to humans in His potential state (i.e. as Love). God is know only in His dynamic or doing state (i.e. as urgings of Love).

God is love, however humans can and will know God only by His active presence as urgings of love. That is, God is Love. However only those who have loved know God (re. 1 John: 4 verse: 8).

Urgings of love which arise and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within your heart for those specific people, things and circumstances in God's creation indicates God's precise will for you. This is how God draws you to what is right for you in accordance with His will for you.

To experience God in your life is to experience God guiding or working in or leading your life. One who is led into their works, by urgings of love which arise and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within their individual hearts, for those specific people, things and circumstances in God's creation are experiencing God (who is Love) and living the will of God (which are these urgings of love).​

 

[Lon]

Considering all the pagan cultures with triune gods, haven't you ever considered the possibility that you have been worshiping a pagan god?

No, you just swallow that pagan stuff, hook, line and sinker.

oatmeal

What? One trick doesn't work so you go to #2 of your repetiore?

I've looked at those 'supposedly similar' tri-deities. You? I think you are regurgitating. Nothing like.

 

[Drake Shelton]

Oh?????

What is "man?"

The essence of man is rationality. A proportional image of God.

 

[Drake Shelton]

that's easy for you to say.

Show me what you mean from the scriptures.

oatmeal

Father's Monarchy: 1 Cor 8:6, John 17:1-3.

Consubstantiality of Son and Spirit 1 John 5:20, Acts 5:4.

The issue is the Father is the only one that is ever termed, "The one God", or "The only God". The other use of theos is with reference to the generic communion of nature.

 

[Drake Shelton]

God is greater than all.

Take it or leave it.

That does not mean that his nature is greater than all. His personhood is greater than all but not nature. The nature is the same in character with the Son and Spirit, 1 John 5:20, Acts 5:4. You don't understand the difference between person and nature and that is why you are currently a damned heretic.

 

[Drake Shelton]

Well then, you should be able to show me where someone taught it between 100 and 150 AD (prior to Justin Martyr).

Problem is, there wasn't anyone teaching trinitarianism prior to Justin Martyr, and even he wasn't exactly trinitarian.

Your arbitrary selection is just that. I already gave the Tertullian quotation.

 

[Gill White]

That does not mean that his nature is greater than all. His personhood is greater than all but not nature. The nature is the same in character with the Son and Spirit, 1 John 5:20, Acts 5:4. You don't understand the difference between person and nature and that is why you are currently a damned heretic.

Hi Drake, what nature did the first Adam have BEFORE he rebelled against God? Was that nature also equal with God?

 

[Drake Shelton]

Indeed God is not known or knowable to humans in His potential state (i.e. as Love). God is know only in His dynamic or doing state (i.e. as urgings of Love).

Is God's activity ad intra or ad extra? Is God's activity his attribute or attributes? Are there more than one activity? Is this activity necessary to God at the level of nature? If not then, if the activities are God's attributes, are you then saying that God's attributes could be different than they are?

 

[Drake Shelton]

Hi Drake, what nature did the first Adam have BEFORE he rebelled against God? Was that nature also equal with God?

The same nature as humans have now. In the genus of being Adam's nature consisted of a hypostatized rational faculty and a physical human body with all tendency toward righteousness. This original righteousness is not something essential to him but natural in the sense that it was the tendency in which man was created.

 

[Drake Shelton]

I still have a challenge that has yet to be touched by the anti-trinitarians:

If it is true that the Spirit applies Christ to us and this application gives us participation IN DIVINE NATURE (2 Pet 1:3-5), how can they apply divine nature when they are not divine persons?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Your opinion is noted.

But where is your scriptural references to substantiate such a claim?

Book of Totton?

oatmeal

*
The Logos was made flesh and we beheld his glory as of the Father, full of grace and truth....the law came from Moses but grace and truth came from Jesus Christ.

Here John identifies Jesus Christ as the Logos who was in the beginning with God and who was God and who made all things.

Only a very decietful person would deny it. YOU are that deceitful one

 

[Totton Linnet]

Or, one can just go with what the Bible states instead of hanging on a pagan ideology.



See, the problem is not if it is wrong or not- it is wrong. I have proven it wrong both to myself and any listener who is actually man enough to admit it. Which isn't many, because trinitarians are dishonest. It takes that degree of dishonesty and denial to keep it alive. If everyone was honest, it would be a dead doctrine.

But because trinitarianism is so gigantic, one can feel snug inside of of that lie. They don't have to feel like blasphemers and idolaters because they have a billion other people to tell them a LIE that they are not.
That's perhaps why trinitarians so often resemble pagans right at face value. They know it is lacking deep down, so they compensate for it by acting high and mighty, being an embarrassment to both real Christians and to all of humankind in general. Fanaticism does not equal Godly, it equals medicine and asylum.

And this is precisely why idols are bad. The Bible speaks on this. What good has the trinity done? It has done absolutely nothing then divide Christendom and cause persecution. Meaningless knowledge that does no good.
That is why I am being quite literal when I say that it is an unholy doctrine. It is obvious.

*
The trins are mighty and numerous because God always intended to save the multitudes, many will come and many have come...but you and your shrivelled gang of gainsayers remain outside the magnificent kingdom of God which He planted as a mustard seed but which has grown into the mightiest tree with his branches filling the earth, where the poor and needy find rest and shelter.

 

[Totton Linnet]

You don't find it disturbing that the majority of the early church held to a form of Sabellianism (according to Turtullian), and that the Trinity doctrine you hold to explicitly and implicitly claims God has three minds, two natures, and that the Father and Holy Spirit were not in Christ on the cross?

From my perspective, it's obviously true that Jesus is God, yet the Trinity doctrine is obviously false. The only reasons people hold to the Trinity is because they think it's synonymous with affirming Christ's deity and don't really understand, or care, that the Trinity doctrine is a superfluous and heretical teaching.

*
Here is the doctrine I believe. "I will pray the Father and He will send another comforter who the world neither sees or knows, you know Him for He dwells with you and will dwell in you"

You are of the world view then

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

i believe in GOD The Father,GOD The Son,and GOD The Holy Spirit. i Love these "3" Names of "GOD",and because GOD has given me faith in these three Names of His...i believe upon Him,and pray to Him in these 3 Names. Yet i still know that He is One GOD. When i pray Abba Father i know that i'm still praying to Christ Jesus,and The Spirit in the same instant,and likewise when i pray Christ Jesus, i'm still praying to The Father,and The Spirit just the same,and likewise when i pray Holy Spirit, i'm still speaking to Christ Jesus,and The Father. It's so simple! Why do people make such a fuss about this??