toldailytopic: Is belief in the trinity necessary for salvation?

[Drake Shelton]

The trinity is required for salvation. It is implied. In 2 peter 1:3-5 we see that salvation gives us participation in the divine nature. If the other two persons of the trinity, who apply the work of christ's redemption are not divine persons then they cannot give us participation in the divine nature.

 

[Drake Shelton]

No, it is not necessary for salvation and I am going to make it clear why.
One thing to notice is that nobody can really show any real justification why it should be a salvation issue.

The trinity is required for salvation. It is implied. In 2 peter 1:3-5 we see that salvation gives us participation in the divine nature. If the other two persons of the trinity, who apply the work of christ's redemption are not divine persons then they cannot give us participation in the divine nature.

 

[Drake Shelton]

Ok to be clear i am a classic Trinitarian, I believe the None trinitarian cults are outside the church, but I am sure people who have there theology wrong or ill defined on the trinity will be in heaven.

Faith in Christ is different that faith in the doctrines of Christ, however its still no excuse for bad doctrine in this area.

That is a fundamental error. There is no separation between believing in someone and believing what that person says. Thus the following verses:

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

John 5: 46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

 

[S0Z0]

There is no separation between believing in someone and believing what that person says.

Exactly.

 

[Drake Shelton]

If yes, then NO ONE was saved prior to the development of the doctrine of the trinity.

That's like saying, that since the atonement was accomplished 2000 years ago, no one was saved before it happened. The Creed solidified what was being taught for centuries.

 

[Drake Shelton]

James 2:19

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

You and the devils believe:

a. three in one God

b. the trinity

c. Jesus Christ is God

d. all of the above

e. that there is one God.

If you picked "e" then you have what scripture teaches, if you picked any other answer, you fail.

oatmeal

You are twisting the meaning of the term in c from e. The NT refers to Jesus as Theos/God in the abstract. The Father is termed the one God, or the only God in the concrete.

 

[Drake Shelton]

Not from my perspective.
You offered a verse to imply that Jesus is God, i.e. only God can forgive sin and Jesus forgave sin. In my opinion, that is not a good verse for proving Jesus is God due to, at least, the two verses I cited. And your alleged distinction between the verse you cited and the verse I cited is unconvincing, especially in light of Matthew 6:15.



As I said in my response to the OP, I believe Jesus is God.

I am opposed to Trinitarianism for the reasons I gave. God doesn't have three minds in three persons.

Also, the Trinity is a denial that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself on the cross. Trinitarians are opposed to patripassianism, and deny that the Father and Holy Spirit suffered on the cross with the Son. One Trinitarian on this forum has has recently argued that the Holy Spirit did not incarnate and was not in Christ on the cross.



Generally, I would like to convince people that Jesus is God. As I said, the verse you cited is not good for proving Jesus is God due to the two verses I cited. I think you should only put forth the best evidence and arguments to support the deity of our Lord. :e4e:

This is another misrepresentation of what i said. I did not say, "God has three minds in three persons." The trinity is made up of three minds. The One God in the concrete is the person of the Father and there are two rays that extend from his nature and are consubstantial with him, the Son and The Holy Ghost.

 

[Gurucam]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for March 29th, 2012 10:10 AM

toldailytopic: Is belief in the trinity necessary for salvation?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.

One must be able to discern precisely what the Spirit of Jesus/Spirit of Truth has in mind for one to pray for say and do, within one's own heart and be led into one's works by this in order to become a child of God (re. Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6, Romans: 8 verse: 14 and 26 & 27). A child of God is one who is saved and delivered.

This is how one seek ye first the kingdom of God, within, then All things (i.e. including salvation and deliverance) are added. God sent the Spirit of Jesus into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God (re. Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6). Now this Spirit (of Jesus) is the Lord (re. 2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 17).

The trinity originated in Peter's church. This is Jesus' schoolmaster church (Galatians: 3 verses 24). Jesus' schoolmaster church is founded on the Ten Commandments (i.e. the gospel of circumcision, re. Galatians: 2 verse: 7). This is not Jesus' church for salvation and deliverance. Salvation and deliverance is based on being under grace of God and being in Christ (re. Galatians: 5 verses: 1 to 4).

Paul's church is Jesus' church for salvation and deliverance. This is achieved through the Spirit and it is based on righteousness of God without the law (Romans: 3 verse: 21) That is the gospel of un-circumcision (re. Galatians: 2 verse: 7)

Seems that not only is belief in the Trinity unnecessary for salvation and deliverance. It seems also that the idea of the Trinity originated in an institution where salvation and deliverance is not the God given focus.

Salvation and deliverance is possible only when one seeks the kingdom of God within one's own heart, first (i.e. before believing any thing). Then all thing are added (like believing and knowing Truth). Fact is believing is about knowing Truth in one's own heart. This is possible only when one has seek and captured the kingdom of God within one's own heart. This is about having live, direct and intuitive communion with the Spirit within one's own heart. This Spirit passes All Truth (re. John: 16 verse: 13)

Truth or All Truth is the basis of salvation and deliverance.​

 

[Drake Shelton]

eameece

Jesus was a mystic. The mystic truth is, each of us is one with God, and IS God; fully divine. I and the Father are one. Jesus taught the mystic truth. Some people who do not recognize the mystic truth, use Christianity to argue and fight with others, or set themselves apart as "saved." Jesus, however, taught love and forgiveness.

What is God?

 

[Drake Shelton]

The triune nature is compound unity, not solitary, not polytheism. You are confusing nature/substance/essence with personal distinctions. Father/Son/Spirit share the ONE same nature and are not 3 beings, not 3 gods, not 3 natures, not 3 spirits. Mormonism is tritheism, while Christianity is triunity. You are thinking in terms of human vs divine persons, finite vs infinite, reason vs revelation.

Wrong on all counts. Read the original nicene creed. It says, "of the essence". Not "the ONE same nature" or the one substance. Nicene Creed teaches generic unity not numeric unity. The nicene creed teaches 3 beings, 3 things. The one God is the Father-auto-theos. The other two extend from the One God;'s nature and are subordinate, not at the level of nature but at the level of person. You believe in only one person. It is sabellian heresy.

 

[Drake Shelton]

John 10:28-36

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

He is greater at the level of person not nature.

 

[Drake Shelton]

They are all divine, and so are we. To be divine, is to be one with God.

OOO. Divine Simplicity dialogue, oo goodie. So then God is an absolute one-ness is that right?

No separate-appearing individual is God. And yet, our deepest identity is God, and we and "The Father" are one.

So are we subject distinction, trying to climbing the hierarchy of being into simplicity?

 

[eameece]

eameece



What is God?

God can't be defined or described. Experience God for yourself.

 

[eameece]

OOO. Divine Simplicity dialogue, oo goodie. So then God is an absolute one-ness is that right?

You can say that, but if you hope to make that a definition, or the premise of a logical argument, you're out of luck.

 

[Drake Shelton]

God can't be defined or described. Experience God for yourself.

If God cannot be described or defined by man, then by definition God and man cannot be metaphysically compatible. If that is the case then man cannot be God because man is definable.

 

[eameece]

If God cannot be described or defined by man, then by definition God and man cannot be metaphysically compatible. If that is the case then man cannot be God because man is definable.

Oh?????

What is "man?"

 

[Angel4Truth]

Yes.

John 8:24 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

There is no He in the greek in this verse, it literally says If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

I AM is the name for God given to moses when moses asked God who to tell the hebrew people, sent him to them.

Exodus 3:14 4 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Later in John 8:58 Christ says this:

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Jesus directly called Himself the same I AM speaking to moses.

So yes, according to Christ Himself, you must believe that He is God, or you will die in your sins.

 

[oatmeal]

Hey everybody, let's let the E students teach the class! They have something new that we never thought of before!

:think: (do I want to be an A student or and E or F student....)

Considering all the pagan cultures with triune gods, haven't you ever considered the possibility that you have been worshiping a pagan god?

No, you just swallow that pagan stuff, hook, line and sinker.

oatmeal

 

[oatmeal]

Er, here is your opportunity:

John 4:22

Matthew 23:2-3


Oops!!!

Do you ever wonder why there are so few of you?
Do you ever wonder why most of us think you are --> :flamer:
Do you stop and wonder if your grades in school have anything to do with your disabilities?
Do you ever wonder why most of those who hold to your position are called 'cults?'
Do you ever wonder why there are only a few of you who are right though not one of you got 4.0's?

Probably not, I'm just asking.

Try reading those very short verses again in conjuction with these question, I'm just sayin'....

Lon,

You have quite a sense of humor.

Er, here is your opportunity:

John 4:22

You have no idea that you are worshiping gods based on pagan theologies.

With so many pagan triune gods out there, maybe that is why God made it clear in Deuteronomy 6:4 that He is one , not three in one.

Matthew 23:2-3

So you buy everything they say?

If you consider the people who plotted to murder Jesus Christ as reliable witnesses, then you have some very serious spiritual problems.

Of course, that is no surprise to those of us who recognize pagan theology as the source of the trinity

Oops!!!

You really did screw up big this time.

Worshiping the three in one pagan gods is not what God had in mind for believers.

Do you ever wonder why there are so few of you?

Since when is truth determined by popular vote?

Noah and his family were not in the majority by any means.

Do you ever wonder why most of us think you are --> :flamer:

You will have to explain your non Biblical terms.

God and his son Jesus Christ are the judges by what God's word says, not by your extra Biblical opinions.

Do you stop and wonder if your grades in school have anything to do with your disabilities?

I don't suck up to liars and deceivers to get good grades.

There is one God who will do the ultimate judging.

By your standards, Jesus Christ failed and was crucified by your teachers and professors as a deceiver.

You have a lot to answer for.

Do you ever wonder why most of those who hold to your position are called 'cults?'

NO, I don't. It is easy to see that you have no scriptural basis for your erroneous beliefs, therefore you must resort to name calling, to divert attention from your idolatrous doctrine.

Do you ever wonder why there are only a few of you who are right though not one of you got 4.0's?

I did not attend any theological cemetery like you did.

II Timothy 2:15 is the standard by which I will be graded, not your idolatrous whoredoms.

Probably not, I'm just asking.

Try reading those very short verses again in conjuction with these question, I'm just sayin'....

Your bravado is noted. But you have built your house on sand.

When Jesus Christ returns as in I Thessalonians 4:13-17, you will see the glorified human son of God, the lord Jesus Christ, not God returning.

I will not be ashamed at his coming, I wish I could say the same for you.

oatmeal

 

[oatmeal]

You are twisting the meaning of the term in c from e. The NT refers to Jesus as Theos/God in the abstract. The Father is termed the one God, or the only God in the concrete.

that's easy for you to say.

Show me what you mean from the scriptures.

oatmeal