toldailytopic: For those unsaved. If it turns out you were wrong and you face God in

[Skavau]

I don't really understand the point of this line of argument (between Christians and non-Christians). What does it matter whether or not God is good/just? It's not as if I lack belief because God is a mean boogie-man. I lack belief because God is implausible, and he's equally implausible regardless of whether hell is a literal concept or not.

For my part, I argue against it because I don't like being told that I am a wretched sinner and deserving of eternal torture unless I buckle under and concede my love to the 'dear leader'. I cannot take a such a world-view seriously morally and I do not wish to be labeled amongst those atheists who simply they say they do not believe but wish they could. The entire concept of a omniscient superpower taking upon itself a complete parody of fatherhood is one born of totalitarian nightmares.

It also matters because those who say that God is just, and all-loving also say that he mandates and/or approves of eternal torture for all of his detractors. That kind of doublespeak should not go unopposed and anyone who has taken any concept of liberty remotely seriously should feel free to speak out against it when it is pressed onto them.

 

[El DLo]

I've always been of the idea that if there was a God, he'd prefer to have someone not believe in him and still live a moral life than to simply disregard other people, so I would argue on that defense. I may not have believed in religion, but I still lived morally, and cared for others, and I still helped to support togetherness among people. Even if that's without the belief in God, I'm still living a life that he would want me to live, with the exclusion of worship, and if God's anything short of a narcissist, that should be enough to meet his approval.

 

[chair]

I've always been of the idea that if there was a God, he'd prefer to have someone not believe in him and still live a moral life than to simply disregard other people, so I would argue on that defense. I may not have believed in religion, but I still lived morally, and cared for others, and I still helped to support togetherness among people. Even if that's without the belief in God, I'm still living a life that he would want me to live, with the exclusion of worship, and if God's anything short of a narcissist, that should be enough to meet his approval.

You don't understand. God isn't interested in your being moral. He figures it's pretty much hopeless. Your only choice is to to accept Grace. I'm not sure if there is any point in bothering with the 'moral' bit once you've done that.

 

[nicholsmom]

For my part, I argue against it because I don't like being told that I am a wretched sinner and deserving of eternal torture unless I buckle under and concede my love to the 'dear leader'. I cannot take a such a world-view seriously morally and I do not wish to be labeled amongst those atheists who simply they say they do not believe but wish they could. The entire concept of a omniscient superpower taking upon itself a complete parody of fatherhood is one born of totalitarian nightmares.

It also matters because those who say that God is just, and all-loving also say that he mandates and/or approves of eternal torture for all of his detractors. That kind of doublespeak should not go unopposed and anyone who has taken any concept of liberty remotely seriously should feel free to speak out against it when it is pressed onto them.

If I had such a view of the Christian god, I would be right in your camp with you. As it is, though, God in no way resembles this picture you paint, so no worries :e4e:

 

[nicholsmom]

You don't understand. God isn't interested in your being moral. He figures it's pretty much hopeless. Your only choice is to to accept Grace. I'm not sure if there is any point in bothering with the 'moral' bit once you've done that.

Those who know Christ love Him so deeply that we desire nothing more than to please Him, so morality is part of our answer to that Grace.

 

[Layla]

For my part, I argue against it because I don't like being told that I am a wretched sinner and deserving of eternal torture unless I buckle under and concede my love to the 'dear leader'. I cannot take a such a world-view seriously morally and I do not wish to be labeled amongst those atheists who simply they say they do not believe but wish they could. The entire concept of a omniscient superpower taking upon itself a complete parody of fatherhood is one born of totalitarian nightmares.

It also matters because those who say that God is just, and all-loving also say that he mandates and/or approves of eternal torture for all of his detractors. That kind of doublespeak should not go unopposed and anyone who has taken any concept of liberty remotely seriously should feel free to speak out against it when it is pressed onto them.

Yeah, I simplified that a little too much. It matters, of course. Just not in this particular discussion/thread. When it comes to discussing whether or not Christian morality (or the morality of particular Christians) is justified, that's where it's more relevant. In a discussion on how you justify/explain your non-belief, it seems less relevant to me.

 

[El DLo]

You don't understand. God isn't interested in your being moral. He figures it's pretty much hopeless. Your only choice is to to accept Grace. I'm not sure if there is any point in bothering with the 'moral' bit once you've done that.

If that's the case, then for what purpose to the ten commandments exist? I mean, don't 8 of them (I think it's 8) directly pertain to moral behaviors? Also, isn't life a test?

 

[godrulz]

I don't really understand the point of this line of argument (between Christians and non-Christians). What does it matter whether or not God is good/just? It's not as if I lack belief because God is a mean boogie-man. I lack belief because God is implausible, and he's equally implausible regardless of whether hell is a literal concept or not.



I could decide to live by Christian rules and values, and preach as you do, but in my heart/mind I would still lack belief. I can choose/control my actions, but not what I have faith in. So what should I do?

What is implausible is explaining reality apart from God.

Christianity is not a religion of rules like other religions. It is a relationship with God through Christ. It is not about externals, but surrendering to God, having the Spirit transform and indwell us, knowing God (vs knowing about God), etc.

Changing your actions still leaves you unregenerate, a sinner, not in relationship with God. Entering a personal relationship with God through surrender and faith will be as real as choosing to marry someone. Until you experience this, you will not have faith/conviction, just a behavioral change. The point is to die to self and come alive in Christ as His life invades us and He lives through us. You still are you and still have choices, but changes in actions/behavior will flow out of relationship, not just fleshly attempts to conform to rules (like Pharisees, Muslims, etc....all in vain).

Jn. 1:12; Jn. 3:16

 

[godrulz]

I've always been of the idea that if there was a God, he'd prefer to have someone not believe in him and still live a moral life than to simply disregard other people, so I would argue on that defense. I may not have believed in religion, but I still lived morally, and cared for others, and I still helped to support togetherness among people. Even if that's without the belief in God, I'm still living a life that he would want me to live, with the exclusion of worship, and if God's anything short of a narcissist, that should be enough to meet his approval.

You are just a better atheist failing to see God's standards are higher than yours. Good for you that you are not a pedophile, but His law condemns even lust or fornication.

Good for you that you do not murder, but hate is also a violation of his law.

Compared to Hitler, you are a swell guy. Compared to Jesus/God, you are a dirty rotten sinner in need of a sinless Savior.

God does not grade on a bell curve. We are all condemned sinners who cannot save ourselves. Your self-righteous attempts will not bridge the gap between a holy God and sinful man. Only the cross can do this.

You are saying that God wasted His time dying on the cross and shedding blood to redeem us. You are saying your ways are higher than God's ways. This is ignorance, arrogance, pride.

The gospel is the power of God (Rom. 1:16), but it is foolishness to those who are perishing (wise Gentiles), a stumbling block to Jews (I Cor. 1:18).

If self-reformation was sufficient, the cross would not have happened.

 

[godrulz]

If that's the case, then for what purpose to the ten commandments exist? I mean, don't 8 of them (I think it's 8) directly pertain to moral behaviors? Also, isn't life a test?

Law keepers came to Jesus and asked what else to do for eternal life. The reality is that we cannot keep the law in our own strength (goes to thoughts/motives, not just actions). Only God is 'good'. So, the law condemns us and shows us how sinful we are. It is a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

The law makes sin abound, but sin makes grace abound (we need grace and power to live up to the law).

The bottom line is that Jesus said to believe on Him (grace) to be saved, not become more religious apart from Him. When we are in Him, we have the power to do what is right and have victory over sin. Apart from Him, our efforts will be futile.

An atheist is still godless/sinner if they are sexually pure or do not murder. A Christian is still a Christian/saint even if they have isolated lapses of sin, lust, etc.

 

[Layla]

What is implausible is explaining reality apart from God.

I find most explanations for reality implausible, whether they include God or not.

Christianity is not a religion of rules like other religions. It is a relationship with God through Christ. It is not about externals, but surrendering to God, having the Spirit transform and indwell us, knowing God (vs knowing about God), etc.

Changing your actions still leaves you unregenerate, a sinner, not in relationship with God. Entering a personal relationship with God through surrender and faith will be as real as choosing to marry someone. Until you experience this, you will not have faith/conviction, just a behavioral change. The point is to die to self and come alive in Christ as His life invades us and He lives through us. You still are you and still have choices, but changes in actions/behavior will flow out of relationship, not just fleshly attempts to conform to rules (like Pharisees, Muslims, etc....all in vain).

Jn. 1:12; Jn. 3:16

Sigh. What I asked was; given that I can only control my actions, not my beliefs... what should I do? I am aware that simply living a good life does not qualify me as a believer or a christian. I am asking you how I go about "entering a personal relationship with God". I cannot force belief. I don't know how. So tell me how to do it.

 

[godrulz]

You can affect your beliefs by informing your mind. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but He also reveals truth and convinces the mind. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Read the Bible and God will convict and convince you if it is His Word and the Holy Spirit illuminates it.

Paul preached to the mind, heart, and will. Our faith has content. Apologetics makes a case for the Bible as the Word of God, the existence of God, the Deity/resurrection of Christ, etc. Many already believe in God. They just need to understand who Jesus is and trust Him alone. A child can do this without all the answers.

If you indoctrinate yourself in Islam, you could convert to it with your informed mind and will.

Once you have a minimum amount of light, you could give your life to Christ and then grow in detailed doctrinal and practical understanding of the Christian faith (discipleship). The Church has teachers to teach us doctrine and practice (orthodoxy/orthopraxy) as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ.

If you thought the earth was flat, you could investigate scientific proofs for round earth and change your mind/view.

Many atheists, including Antony Flew, follow the evidence and become theists. Others like C.S. Lewis move to a fully Christian conversion/position.

In any subject, we can change our views with new knowledge. We then give mental assent and finally trust it. Once we see that Christ and His claims are true (and the Word of God is revelation of spiritual truth from God), then we act on it and He increases our faith/knowledge over time. It does come down to faith, but it is based on facts, not presumption.

It is wrong to assume there is not sufficient evidence to believe. We are dead spiritually, so it involves yielding to the work of the Spirit in our lives. Rom. 1 talks about suppressing truth by our wickedness, truth about God that He has made plain.

We are preaching God/Christ. You must do something with it. Pursue it until you know that you know (either way), procrastinate, be indifferent, rebel, etc. The gospel is preached persuasively. Many believe and then see the light (we want all the answers before we believe, but God does not usually work that way). Many reject it despite it being true.

A Jehovah's Witness must indoctrinate a person over time with Watchtower literature for a person to become a JW. They read the Bible through the eyes of the WT. They think eternal life is taking in knowledge about God. The verse actually says that it is knowing God (vs about God). So, a true Christian can sense the Spirit's conviction and convincing, take a baby step of child-like faith and be transformed by the love and power of God in a moment. They have assurance of eternal life. A JW must study for an extended period, then get baptized, do door-to-door work, etc. and never know God, never have assurance, never have peace (it is a false cult).

Make sure you are talking about reasons, not excuses. The problem is usually moral, not intellectual (the evidence is out there for Christianity, but most want to continue living as if God does not exist....selfishly vs cost to follow Him).

 

[Silent Hunter]

:mock: godrulz

 

[godrulz]

:mock: godrulz

They also mocked Jesus and Paul. Mock me if I am wrong on things, but mocking the God/gospel I represent just shows your ignorance.


Deal with the arguments, not the argumentum ad hominem nonsense.

The reality is that you are a lawbreaker under the wrath of God. Unless you recognize this and flee to Him for safety, you will perish. Your blindness is not an excuse. Your denials will not change the reality.

Socio/psychopaths don't have the conscience to recognize their evil, but this does not stop them from being judged and thrown in jail despite their protests.

We are warning you about the wrath to come. You can deny death and hell, but they will be your lot. Unless you repent, you will perish. God is not mocked and you are not the Judge. Ignore Him to your own peril. There is no fear of God in the land. We are trying to put up a road block for you, but you are bashing through it to the cliff below.:hammer:

Do you want justice or mercy? To the hard-hearted, Jesus preached wrath and justice. To the broken and open, He preached love and mercy.

The ball is in your court....your way or God's way. God will win in the end, trust us.

 

[Silent Hunter]

They also mocked Jesus and Paul. Mock me if I am wrong on things, but mocking the God/gospel I represent just shows your ignorance.

lain:

Deal with the arguments, not the argumentum ad hominem nonsense.

. . . LOL . . . the day you present an actual argument to an atheist/agnostic/anyone else not of your particular religious "persuasion" or an "argument" lacking a veiled ad hominem an awful lot of posters on AOL will drop over dead.

The reality is that you are a lawbreaker under the wrath of God. Unless you recognize this and flee to Him for safety, you will perish. Your blindness is not an excuse. Your denials will not change the reality.

NOT an argument . . . but rather a gratuitous religious platitude.

Socio/psychopaths don't have the conscience to recognize their evil, but this does not stop them from being judged and thrown in jail despite their protests.

NOT an argument . . . but rather a gratuitous religious platitude.

We are warning you about the wrath to come. You can deny death and hell, but they will be your lot. Unless you repent, you will perish. God is not mocked and you are not the Judge. Ignore Him to your own peril. There is no fear of God in the land. We are trying to put up a road block for you, but you are bashing through it to the cliff below.

NOT an argument . . . but rather a gratuitous religious platitude.

Do you want justice or mercy? To the hard-hearted, Jesus preached wrath and justice. To the broken and open, He preached love and mercy.

NOT an argument . . . but rather a gratuitous religious platitude.

The ball is in your court....your way or God's way. God will win in the end, trust us.

NOT an argument . . . but rather a gratuitous religious platitude.

 

[godrulz]

The statements are true even if you don't recognize or admit it. Using your technique, we could dismiss any factual statement, but we would still be wrong. Your defense mechanism is only fooling you, not God and others who know the truth. Deny gravity and death all you want. You are not immune to either.

 

[Silent Hunter]

The statements are true even if you don't recognize or admit it. Using your technique, we could dismiss any factual statement, but we would still be wrong. Your defense mechanism is only fooling you, not God and others who know the truth. Deny gravity and death all you want. You are not immune to either.

. . . :blabla: . . . :doh:

Well . . . so much for a valid argument from you. Same ol' :kookoo: as usual.

 

[chair]

The statements are true even if you don't recognize or admit it. Using your technique, we could dismiss any factual statement, but we would still be wrong. Your defense mechanism is only fooling you, not God and others who know the truth. Deny gravity and death all you want. You are not immune to either.

GR- with all due respect, your posts generally are declarations of what you believe, and rarely, if ever, include any real reasoning or arguments. Just "this is the way it is, and boy are you in for it if you don't accept this."

This is not a very convincing approach.

 

[Skavau]

If I had such a view of the Christian god, I would be right in your camp with you. As it is, though, God in no way resembles this picture you paint, so no worries

That depends. Unless you are a universalist, your disagreement with me is likely to be based solely in semantics.

What is your viewpoint concerning 'hell'? Does it exist? Who goes there and why?
What is your viewpoint concerning belief in God and of his sacrifice? Is it necessary for salvation?
What is your position on 'original sin', or our own imperfection? Is it designed or is it passed on?

 

[Skavau]

Yeah, I simplified that a little too much. It matters, of course. Just not in this particular discussion/thread. When it comes to discussing whether or not Christian morality (or the morality of particular Christians) is justified, that's where it's more relevant. In a discussion on how you justify/explain your non-belief, it seems less relevant to me.

It is absolutely linked to this thread as many Christians hold that there is no excuse for not believing in God and that an inability to believe in him will result in eternal damnation. I am not just defending myself by responding like this but deliberately trying to undermine the relevance and morality of such a self-hating position that holds the entire human race guilty by existence and in doing so, I provide my answer to the thread question. Absolutely everything about vicarious redemption is suspect.