Blame Satan and Hitler for WW II evils, not God Himself.
toldailytopic: For those unsaved. If it turns out you were wrong and you face God in
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Blame Satan and Hitler for WW II evils, not God Himself.
I am slowly working my way through a very thorough book on this subject, called "The Historical Reliability of The Gospels" By Craig Blomberg. Blomberg has done a great lot of homework to write this book, looking into all the various theories and the evidence for each as well as the history and culture of the time. I think that unless a person has really made an honest and thorough study of the reliability of the Gospels, he should do no more than claim doubt.
If one has done a thorough study, then arguments that come from that study should be given rather than casting aspersions, that way we can all learn a bit from the various arguments and the responses to those arguments.
Just seems like a more useful and interesting way to pass the time than "This is history" "No it isn't" "Yes it is" "You're an ignorant sucker"lain:
The problem is: How much effort should a non-Christian go to in seriously considering Christian claims? Why should we bother at all?
I have read part of the New Testament, and even gave CS Lewis a shot. I think it is important to have some idea of what other people believe. But I don't see any reason for me to seriously consider the Christian beliefs as an alternate to my own. I don't have any motivation to read the book you mentioned, or any of a hundred more.
alwight
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How fortunate then GR that your God is exactly how you would have envisioned a god, had you been inclined or wanted to invent one.
I personally don't blame any gods for anything simply because I don't believe in any.
I don't criticise or blame your God, only the notion of your God.
However I would hate to think that an omnipotent involved deity did actually exist but callously ignored innocents' suffering while apparently being more than willing to find someone a parking space at the supermarket or by easing their nagging persistent backache.
lain:
Zeke
Well-known member
Blame God and adam, you think it was his freewill that brought sin and death to all men, which we see manifesting all over the world through history. Or satan was so smart that even God miss judged his ability to deceive eve, which caused adams failure. That story is all through the bible isn't it? samson, david, solomon.
So which would you rather have, a God who knew what adam would do, or a God who was ignorant? either one is still reponsible.
Grace, Zeke.
Said the deep jungle tribesman to some lunatic in a white coat with a needle and a dark bag while trembling as all in his long lived tribe did before their natural death at fifty. :think:
Okay, you have to ignore the language part to make it work, but...
I like the analogy, in part because the history of medicine is rife with frauds up to the point we started actually demanding that medical claims be accompanied by medical evidence.
And here we see more of SD obsession with how I live my life. What a sad, sad, life you must live, SD.
alwight
New member
Perhaps she doth protest too much about you. :think:
I rather suspect you may actually have a secret admirer there, or so it seems to me.
That's what I'm afraid of. She's downright creepy in her persistence.
How fortunate then GR that your God is exactly how you would have envisioned a god, had you been inclined or wanted to invent one.
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I did not invent God, but accept Him as He has revealed Himself. I would not come up with the Trinity, for e.g. This is only based on revelation, not reason. I would have guessed God would be solitary, not compound unity.
Most can or would imagine that God would be intelligent, benevolent vs stupid, evil.
Do you also have trouble accepting that 2+2=4?
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
Wrong . . . wrong . . . so . . . so . . . very . . . very . . . wrong.
2+2=5 for large values of 2 . . . (If you understood mathematics you'd know why.)
Huh? Do my fingers lie?:noid:
Just goes to show you, we all tend to see what we look for. :e4e:
You are a lawbreaker and the Law Giver has sanctions and consequences for breaking His law. He does not judge on the basis of how you lived true to yourself or how you were better or worse than the next guy. His standard is perfection, His holiness based on His character.
Some could say they lived consistent with their nature to justify adultery, polygamy, cannibalism, etc.
Your opinion is irrelevant and wrong. God has given us His truth and this will be the basis for judgment. You have a false sense of security based on a lie.
PyramidHead
Active member
Is it possible to live a life on this Earth without breaking these 'laws'?
Alencon
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Perhaps, but I have no choice but to be consistent with my nature. Are you familiar with the story of the Scorpion and the Frog?
Just out of curiousity, what laws are you aware that I have broken?
I wear a stainless steel butterfly on my cap. I bought it last September supporting a fund raising drive for a child in town with leukemia. She died last week. She would have been in first grade in the coming school year.
I don't know many things but I know there were men in town that would have saved that child even at the cost of great effort and pain.
Yet you tell me there is a all-powerful, all-loving god that could have saved her with no effort at all but chose not to do so.
I have considered your god and found him unworthy of respect, obedience or existence. He's a fairy tale, or more precisely an imaginary boogeyman.
His standard is perfection? Then he shouldn't have created such imperfect beings. Far better to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do than to do it out of fear. I don't do fear.
I must be consistent with my nature.
Skavau
New member
The first thing of note here is that from my perspective I am not refusing the love of God. I don't believe that a God(s) exist. There is no God(s) to love. The pretext therefore of me sharing the destiny of Satan is therefore based on a fallacy.godrulz said:
Well, I am glad to hear that. By why is there the insistence that those who do not want to love him or cannot be made to believe that he exists must spend eternity in everlasting torture? To what end does it serve? For what purpose is it for?
But I don't believe in this 'Christ' figure. I could only pretend that I believed in 'Christ' and I am not willing to do that. It is intellectually dishonest and my motivations could only be based on self-interest (that is a desire to go to heaven and avoid hell).
In addition, what of sincere Muslims that believe their redemption to be found in Allah? What of them?
This is a unique sentence in that it is unintentional doublespeak. He will "silence our mouths" and then be known as a "loving, holy" etc? This sounds like the kind of propaganda one could expect to hear from any dictator with a personality cult behind him.
My "wretched nakedness" is solely the responsibility of the God that you believe exists. If I am imperfect and if I am with the propensity to committing evil then it would necessarily have to be at the approval and/or intervention of God. I cannot help that I was born like this. By necessity you have to believe that God judges us for our imperfection and "wretchedness" that he imposed upon us either through design or through original sin.
Given that you believe this God is an omniscient superpower who still exists today, I think I can label said sacrifice as pseudo at best.
This is a comical analogy. A just judge in a court is subject to criticism. He is not granted infinite powers to sentence anyone for anything and he is equally subject to the law. A just judge also does not sentence people to prison for things like thought-crime or for imperfection. A just judge also places emphasis on rehabilitation when he can and therefore could not endorse eternal punishment.
We don't sadistically torture even serial killers. We don't hold them in solitary confinement purely for purposes of sadism. We don't talk of holding them for as long as possible as to inflict the longest possible sentence - in fact, to the contrary (if your state or nation permits it) they often receive the death penalty which prematurely ends their captivity and ideally in a painless way. There is simply no comparison.
No I wouldn't. To murder someone is an anti-social action that is required to be rendered illegal for the purposes of any civil society that values the progression and safety of its own population. It is not comparable to God sentencing people to eternal torment for their own nature and then providing a get-out-clause for those who simply believed in his earlier sacrifice.
In fact, to be consistent it would have to be you that could let the murderer off. You could ask the murderer to repent and recognise the rule of law and then he would have his debt covered.
Skavau
New member
What regret? That I was wrong? I apologise for using the mind as given by God to conclude that there was no evidence for his existence. My 'crime' in this context can only be an incapability of believing him to be true. I could only be accused of getting my information wrong. How is that worthy of eternal torment?voltaire said:
And what of Muslims, sir? Would you suppose that they, despite also devoting their lives to the worship and praise of what they considered the one-true God be torturing themselves over their wrong decision?
God would be unjustified in allowing any kind of eternal torture. It is the imposition of an infinite punishment for finite 'crimes'. It cannot be justified.
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