toldailytopic: For those unsaved. If it turns out you were wrong and you face God in

[Skavau]

The problem of evil cannot be laid at God's feet. I don't serve Him out of scared fear, but awe, love, reverence since He is the most beautiful, awesome, valuable being in the universe. Don't confuse Him with Satan, demons, Hitler, Stalin, etc. He opposes these things, yet the atheists blame God for them?

Atheists don't actually believe in a God, and therefore do not blame him for anything. What is often said by anti-theists is that if a God as you describe actually does exist then all events that have ever transpired are directly his fault. He is the omniscient architect of not just humanity but the universe itself. He is responsible for natural disasters wiping out people indiscriminately. He is responsible for mass indiscriminate disease across the planet spreading through populations and crippling people before they have had a chance.

You are a lawbreaker and the Law Giver has sanctions and consequences for breaking His law. He does not judge on the basis of how you lived true to yourself or how you were better or worse than the next guy. His standard is perfection, His holiness based on His character.

Then his standard is utter nonsense. If God is the evaluator of us then he can only judge us based on what we could do and could have done. To judge us on his standard of perfection is absurd. He knows we are incapable of perfection. He even designed us to be incapable of perfection.

 

[godrulz]

Is it possible to live a life on this Earth without breaking these 'laws'?

Jesus extended the laws to thoughts and motives. Only Jesus was sinless. We are all lawbreakers (one wrong thought/motive makes us a sinner), so it is not possible.

That was the bad news. The good news (gospel) is that the death and resurrection of Jesus allows God to treat us as if we never sinned (justification by grace through faith).

The gospel is simple. We are without excuse for rejecting it/Him.

There are a million ways to hell. One does not have to do anything to get there. Just coast on as a godplayer in the Kingdom of Self.

There is only one way to heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ. It comes down to receiving or rejecting Him (either He is Lord God in our life or we are gods that will perish apart from Him).

 

[godrulz]

Perhaps, but I have no choice but to be consistent with my nature. Are you familiar with the story of the Scorpion and the Frog?

Just out of curiousity, what laws are you aware that I have broken?

I wear a stainless steel butterfly on my cap. I bought it last September supporting a fund raising drive for a child in town with leukemia. She died last week. She would have been in first grade in the coming school year.

I don't know many things but I know there were men in town that would have saved that child even at the cost of great effort and pain.

Yet you tell me there is a all-powerful, all-loving god that could have saved her with no effort at all but chose not to do so.

I have considered your god and found him unworthy of respect, obedience or existence. He's a fairy tale, or more precisely an imaginary boogeyman.

His standard is perfection? Then he shouldn't have created such imperfect beings. Far better to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do than to do it out of fear. I don't do fear.

I must be consistent with my nature.

You cannot blame a nebulous nature that is not causative. The will and mind is the seat of moral choice.

Regardless, you are a leopard who cannot change his own spots. Jesus can make you a new creature in Christ and change your 'nature' by the Holy Spirit. Old things fall away and everything becomes new.

B.F. Skinner's behavioralism is not true. We are moral agents in the image of God, not victims of our nature or environment that is influential, not causative.

 

[voltaire]

You didn't seem to understand my post skavau. What to regret? Nothing, if your state of mind is exactly as it is today. Will it be though? You say there is absolutely no evidence for God right? Why is it that I and millions of other people see plenty of evidence as plain as the noses on our face? Could it be that you are blind in this respect? Have you ever heard of a mental block? Well, on judgement day, that mental block will be removed. You will then see the evidence for God as clearly as I do today. I don't mean you will see him in front of you. Your life will pass before your eyes. All that you were blind to before each day of your life, will suddenly become evident. You will tell yourself this: Why couldn't i see this back then? You will then realize that you never, ever, really tried to discover the truth. This is where you will feel the regret.

 

[Skavau]

You didn't seem to understand my post skavau. What to regret? Nothing, if your state of mind is exactly as it is today.

So if my state of mind is the same when I die as it is now, does that mean that having no regret would mean that no eternal torture awaited me? (following on from what you said)

Will it be though? You say there is absolutely no evidence for God right? Why is it that I and millions of other people see plenty of evidence as plain as the noses on our face?

Why is that millions of others do not see plenty of evidence for God? Why is it that millions of others believe that God is Allah? Why is it that millions more happen to be polytheistic, or pantheistic? Appealing to popularity remains a fallacy.

Could it be that you are blind in this respect? Have you ever heard of a mental block? Well, on judgement day, that mental block will be removed.

Supposing I have a mental block: So what? Does that mean I deserve eternal torture?

You will then see the evidence for God as clearly as I do today. I don't mean you will see him in front of you. Your life will pass before your eyes. All that you were blind to before each day of your life, will suddenly become evident. You will tell yourself this: Why couldn't i see this back then? You will then realize that you never, ever, really tried to discover the truth. This is where you will feel the regret.

And so how is it moral for God to allow that regret to last an eternity? Why is it acceptable for God to sit there and allow billions to suffer for their 'regret' of not noticing him?

And I ask again: What of Muslims, sir? Would you suppose that they, despite also devoting their lives to the worship and praise of what they considered the one-true God be torturing themselves over their wrong decision?

 

[voltaire]

I never said not believing in God was worthy of being eternally punished skavau. I tired to explain the nature of the so called "torture". Did you ignore this? I said there will be regret once the truth is revealed and you realize that it was possible to find that truth while you were on earth. The torture is only a description of that regret and a deep sense of loss of what you realize you could have had and purposely chose to reject it. You say you have rejected nothing. In reality, you will realize that you only fooled yourself into believing you rejected nothing. Let me repeat this. God is not punishing you. He does not torment. The torment all comes from within. It is psychological. He tried everything he could short of the miraculous to try and convince you. It is another topic as to why the in your face displays of supernatural power will not work to convince.

 

[godrulz]

Sincerity does not create truth. Muslims, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Buddhists, etc. are deceived and will perish since they trust men, not God. I cannot trust a counterfeit coin to buy things in light of the government's genuine money.

 

[voltaire]

Why is it
acceptable for God to sit there
and allow billions to suffer
for their 'regret' of not
noticing him?-------Skavau. Why is this acceptable behavior on God's part? What is the alternative? How do we determine what is moral or ethical for the creator of the universe and on what basis? He realizes the unbelievers will experience awful regret. He tried everything possible to avoid that regret. Again, supernatural displays of power do not work. From our perspective , the ethical thing to do would be to end the consciousness of the unbeliever. Perhaps that will be done? I don't know. Godrulz is adamant that it isn't so. I'm not totally convinced. Even if the consciousness remains for eternity, I trust that God is just in allowing it. I admit that I do not understand how but I also understand that my knowledge is limited while his is not. There could be justification that i am not aware of.

 

[godrulz]

One big problem is that the unbeliever is looking at himself through his own eyes instead of the holy eyes of God, the Judge. In the end, our opinion of ourselves is not the issue. God is perfect in love, holiness, justice, grace, mercy, wrath. The unbeliever justifies himself and does not understand the issues at all. God is a responsible Moral Governor of the universe.

Genesis 18:25 The Judge of all the earth will do the right thing with sinner and saint. If there was another way, God would have revealed it.

The gospel deals with God, man, Christ, repentance-faith. It is the power of God and needed by all men (Rom. 1:16). We can deny cancer, sin, death, hell, etc., but the reality will not change. Gravity will apply whether we think it does or not (test it by jumping off a bridge).

 

[chair]

Sincerity does not create truth. Muslims, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Buddhists, etc. are deceived and will perish since they trust men, not God. I cannot trust a counterfeit coin to buy things in light of the government's genuine money.

Sincerity does not create truth. Muslims, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Christians, etc. are deceived and will perish since they trust men, not God. I cannot trust a counterfeit coin to buy things in light of the government's genuine money.

 

[godrulz]

It can be demonstrated that some things are true and other things are false in any field. Spiritual truth is absolute, not relative. It is revealed by God. Not all views are equally truthful nor salvific.

Christianity/Jesus is true because Jesus is God.

If it can be shown that Jesus is not God and did not rise from the dead, then Christianity would be on par with other religions.

It is evident that Jones/Koresh were not men of God. Putting them on par with Jesus is stupid.

It can be shown that the Koran, Muhammad, etc. are not Scripture/Prophet.

One should not minimize the differences between religions and maximize their similarities.

There is a true God and there are false gods. Blurring this distinction just displays ignorance of what various groups believe.

You might as well argue that a fried egg on your head gives love, joy, peace, and eternal life. The reality is that Jesus can and does give these things, unlike an egg.

 

[alwight]

I did not invent God, but accept Him as He has revealed Himself. I would not come up with the Trinity, for e.g. This is only based on revelation, not reason. I would have guessed God would be solitary, not compound unity.

But your apparently "revealed" God, according to you, is omnipotent, involved and loving despite not showing it to most people in the world, who either have quite different gods or none at all it seems.
Perhaps you should face it, your concept of God is nothing but a very human construction, just like all those other supposed gods are. None of them ever do intervene nor appear when really called upon, but will nevertheless continuously get heaped praise and worship in what looks, to me anyway, like nothing more than man's ongoing superstitious nature simply to maintain the status quo or a willingness to be led like sheep.

Most can or would imagine that God would be intelligent, benevolent vs stupid, evil.

Yes, but different cultures still seem to produce quite different gods.

Do you also have trouble accepting that 2+2=4?

I'm quite good with arithmetic using real numbers GR but I never did get the hang of those imaginary ones. :liberals:

 

[One Eyed Jack]

I'm quite good with arithmetic using real numbers GR but I never did get the hang of those imaginary ones. :liberals:

Just think of i as being positive and negative at the same time. That's the only way you can square it and come up with a negative number.

 

[chair]

It can be demonstrated that some things are true and other things are false in any field. Spiritual truth is absolute, not relative. It is revealed by God. Not all views are equally truthful nor salvific.

Christianity/Jesus is true because Jesus is God.

If it can be shown that Jesus is not God and did not rise from the dead, then Christianity would be on par with other religions.

No. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Jesus is God and that he did rise from the dead. Until you made some effort at proving it, there is no reason for anybody to bother trying to disprove it.

 

[Layla]

There is a huge communication disconnect between christian and non christian on this thread. One of the biggest issues i see being raised by the atheists is that of eternal torture and whose eternal agony is richly enjoyed by a monstrous god. I am not inclined to believe in eternal torture inflicted on the non believer by an outside agent. I believe that any eternal agony will be solely the natural result of the souls seperation from God. That seperation itself is what causes the agony and not some eternal open fire grill.

I don't really understand the point of this line of argument (between Christians and non-Christians). What does it matter whether or not God is good/just? It's not as if I lack belief because God is a mean boogie-man. I lack belief because God is implausible, and he's equally implausible regardless of whether hell is a literal concept or not.

There is no reason to go to hell. If you trust Christ, you will not have to worry about it. Your focus should then be warning others that there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun.

I could decide to live by Christian rules and values, and preach as you do, but in my heart/mind I would still lack belief. I can choose/control my actions, but not what I have faith in. So what should I do?

 

[alwight]

Just think of i as being positive and negative at the same time. That's the only way you can square it and come up with a negative number.

Ah yes, I see now, I went wrong by taking away the first number I thought of.

 

[alwight]

There is no reason to go to hell. If you trust Christ, you will not have to worry about it. Your focus should then be warning others that there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun.

I really don't think you can speak from experience or special knowledge here GR, no more than anyone else who is yet to die, but I suspect it gives you a rather nice warm glow.

 

[Skavau]

I never said not believing in God was worthy of being eternally punished skavau.

Correct. You are pedaling the idea that not believing in God will warrant the unsaved soul to feel eternal "regret" in the afterlife (for not believing in God) and thus impose self-harm upon itself, giving the host the feeling of constant torture. It becomes an issue of semantics above anything else. The idea that everyone who disbelieves in God will feel eternal regret is also an unsubstantiated claim that says nothing for those who conclude what they do through rational inquiry and obtained knowledge. It says nothing for the millions that hold that Allah is God and those who believe in many Gods. It is an oversimplified non-reply that asserts and explains nothing.

I tired to explain the nature of the so called "torture". Did you ignore this?

No I didn't. I've directly quoted it and my response has been to say that a God that would allow the soul to torture its host eternally is a God not worth defending.

I said there will be regret once the truth is revealed and you realize that it was possible to find that truth while you were on earth.

Yet you have no way of knowing that this is what I or anyone else will feel. If I myself feel it, then it will not be an accurate reflection of who I am and any regret would be imposed.

The torture is only a description of that regret and a deep sense of loss of what you realize you could have had and purposely chose to reject it.

I have no "purposefully" rejected Yahweh anymore than you have chosen to reject Allah or Zeus. You just, like me do not believe they exist because you believe they do not form a part of what is actually true. The idea that I have "rejected" God is nonsense. There is no God (from my perspective) to reject.

You say you have rejected nothing. In reality, you will realize that you only fooled yourself into believing you rejected nothing.

The attempt at reading my mind aside, even if this was remotely true - it would mean nothing. Whether I am deluded or whether I have fooled myself into thinking what I think - I still think it.

Let me repeat this. God is not punishing you. He does not torment. The torment all comes from within. It is psychological. He tried everything he could short of the miraculous to try and convince you. It is another topic as to why the in your face displays of supernatural power will not work to convince.

And what "in your face" displays of supernatural power?

And I ask for now the third time: What of Muslims, sir? Would you suppose that they, despite also devoting their lives to the worship and praise of what they considered the one-true God be torturing themselves over their wrong decision?

 

[Skavau]

Sincerity does not create truth.

This part is true - and it applies to you as well. The sincerity you hold towards your belief are there but they do not justify the validity of them.

Muslims, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Buddhists, etc. are deceived and will perish since they trust men, not God. I cannot trust a counterfeit coin to buy things in light of the government's genuine money.

What a nonsensical statement. Literalism is far more alive in Islam than in Christianity. Muslims literally believe the Qu'ran to be the final message dictated by God. They literally hold it as the definitive text in the history of literature (which is why Islam is so focused on Arabic) and often challenge non-believers to find some literature that is more impressive than it. To claim that they follow man is just absurd. They honestly believe, true or otherwise that they are following the direct orders of God. They're even more politicized than Christianity and millions of them wish the return of a new triumphant Caliphate.

 

[Skavau]

Why is this acceptable behavior on God's part? What is the alternative?

God could be far more merciful by simply ending the existence of all the 'lost' rather than allowing them to wallow in eternal torture. To argue against this would require you to prefer torture over release (which would be simply sadistic).

Or, to be even more merciful - he could recognise those who could not be made to believe in him and recognise those who believed in a different concept of him (or believed him to be plural). He could offer them a place. To say that you would prefer someone to receive suffering over pleasure is in itself a morally indefensible statement and God would have the power to offer those who did not believe in him release or respite.

How do we determine what is moral or ethical for the creator of the universe and on what basis?

Based on the desire to alleviate and end suffering and the desire to promote well-being and safety. If you reject such a desire as valid, then you effectively reject the human race as being anything other than God's resources for him to use and do as he pleases.

He realizes the unbelievers will experience awful regret. He tried everything possible to avoid that regret.

No, he hasn't. He could remove the feeling of regret that unbelievers would feel. He is the omniscient arbiter capable of doing such.

Again, supernatural displays of power do not work. From our perspective , the ethical thing to do would be to end the consciousness of the unbeliever. Perhaps that will be done? I don't know. Godrulz is adamant that it isn't so. I'm not totally convinced. Even if the consciousness remains for eternity, I trust that God is just in allowing it.

I have no problem with such honesty. I am glad of your trust that God will do what is just (no matter how it may appear), but a valid argument it does not make. I do not share such trust and treat anyone who tells me a being exists who requires my compulsory love for redemption as slightly shady.