zippy2006
New member
Indeed. What do you believe regarding sodomy?
toldailytopic: During His earthly ministry would Jesus have approved of the homosexua
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Indeed. What do you believe regarding sodomy?
WizardofOz
New member
Common misconception. Check the scripture. It is not THE sin that lead to their destruction.
I would say the desire to rape Angels of The Lord was the greater offense but I welcome your rebuttal.
Being a jerk like telling me that my opinion is not honest? Give and you shall receive in kind. :e4e:
It was claimed that every sin is forgivable. Clearly this is not the case.
elohiym
Well-known member
Nope.
Ezekiel 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom, pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
WizardofOz
New member
:thumb:
Thank you for clearing that one up. If I had a nickel every time homosexuality was blamed for the fall of S&G.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
Romans 1:27 Oh there's no way this is talking about homosexuality...
It has been a while since I read that account. I don't recognize your second statement as being correct.
elohiym
Well-known member
Then your position does not lack integrity. :thumb:
If you thought it was sinful for homosexuals to engage in sodomy but not heterosexuals, I would think your position lacked integrity.
I believe consensual sodomy is not a sin (Mt 7:12).
genuineoriginal
New member
Off topic and pathetic.
You don't know what is the natural use of the woman by a man?
You don't know what it means when one man burns in his lust towards another man?
You don't know context when it is right in front of your face?
Romans 1:27 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. |
No, which is why He told the Disciples to pray that they would not be in a situation where they would be fleeing for their life and would be faced with the choice of breaking the Sabbath to continue fleeing or losing their lives by stopping their flight to keep the Sabbath.
WizardofOz
New member
genuineoriginal
New member
Matthew 7:12 12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. |
So, you are finally admitting that you want men to sodomize you and that you also sodomize men?
Please set the record straight if I misunderstood what you were saying.
If you cannot acknowledge that you are committing a sin, you cannot repent. If you cannot repent, you cannot be saved.
Jordan Fontenot
New member
The only reason blasphemy cannot be forgiven is because by definition you cannot be forgiven by God because you cannot turn to someone you have rejected. If by some chance you have a change of heart then of course you can be forgiven, but when Jesus said that he wasn't saying that God could not forgive them but rather that man could not repent.
Every sin can be forgiven.
WizardofOz
New member
All except one.....
Jordan Fontenot
New member
It CAN be forgiven, but if you call God evil you will never find salvation and therefor never be forgiven. If you repent and stop calling him evil you can be forgiven...
zippy2006
New member
:thumb:
Do you believe consensual fornication is a sin?
Romans 1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
How can this be construed as idolatry to the exclusion of homosexual relations? :idunno:
elohiym
Well-known member
Actually, Romans 1:27 is not about homosexuality at all.
Romans 1:18-30 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. |
Clearly, Paul is not speaking about homosexuals, but idolatry. The "they" in verse 21 are all unbelievers. The context is all unbelievers, including the unbelieving Jews, not just a small group of unbelievers.
So hopefully you can see that based on that fact alone, Romans 1:27 cannot be about homosexuality, else you are claiming that every unbeliever, including the unbelieving Jews were given over to homosexuality by God.
But let's look further:
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: |
Why assume that God "gave them up to uncleanness" means God gave them up to commit homosexuality? Are you overlooking the specific use of the term "uncleanness?" Is homosexuality uncleanness (like menstruation) or sin? Or do you think uncleanness and sin are synonymous?
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. |
Sounds like idolatry is still the subject.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: |
To think that verse is suddenly about homosexuality and not idolatry you have to make some assumptions.
Do you believe people who are attracted to the same sex have been given up by God "unto vile affections?" :think:
Are the only vile affections you can think of are homosexual attraction? And if the Bible actually describes other vile affections that stem from idolatry, why can't it be those vile affections? :think:
And what do you think the "natural use" of women is? Sex? :think:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. |
Pretty vague wording, if it's about homosexuality, and certainly out of context because not all unbelievers are homosexuals.
Here is an example of idolatrous men, burning with covetousness (lust) toward one another, and men with men working that which is unseemly:
John 12:42-43 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, |
Again, it's clear the passage is not about homosexuality.
Tell me, if you still covet from time-to-time, or do any of those things, why isn't the passage about you?
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. |
Nothing about homosexuality. Like other verses in the Bible, people have been wrongly taught that the Roman's indictment is about homosexuality. It's obviously not.
elohiym
Well-known member
I don't believe there is such a thing as consensual fornication. My studies into the word fornication have shown me that it relates to idolatry.
I addressed the Romans indictment in my post above.
elohiym
Well-known member
No.
But thanks for proving you don't understand Matthew 7:12 or my point.
Are you committing sin when you work on the seventh-day of the week? Yes or no.
(I know you either will punt again, or equivocate. :chuckle
zippy2006
New member
So when two unmarried people decide to have consensual sex is that sin?
Because they have dishonored their own bodies via lust between themselves. That's what it says.
Idolatry is a large part of homosexual relations, they are not mutually exclusive.
Verse 24 already gives ample evidence that homosexuality is the topic, so it is not a sudden conclusion. Paul here speaks about women doing something against nature. If he is talking about idolatry, why single out women? How is idolatry "against nature" more than any other sin?
The "natural use" is heterosexual relations, "that which is against nature" is homosexual relations. Idolatry is not against nature.
Paul never says that everyone is committing these crimes. What in the world would "leaving aside the natural use of women" and lusting after men have to do with idolatry? If it were merely about idolatry the man-woman distinction would be irrelevant.
Why? It isn't clear at all from what you've so far said. And can you name any reputable Bible scholars who agree with you?
Iconoclast
New member
Well lets look at what the bible says not what people say about what it says but what it says...
(Ge 13:13)
13 But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the LORD.
(Ge 18:20–21)
20 And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
Now after this in the story Abraham and God get into a dialog that starts with finding 50 righteous men and gets down to only needing 10 to save the city from destruction. A strange debate for sure but there was an outcry that had come to the Lord. Who was making this outcry?
But when we take that verse and put it in context of the verses around it both before and after we see something.
(Eze 16:46–50)
46 “Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who dwells to the south of you, is Sodom and her daughters. 47 You did not walk in their ways nor act according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you became more corrupt than they in all your ways.
48 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.
So in a correct biblical understanding the abominations that they committed were WHAT? What does the scripture say?
(Le 18:22–27)
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion.
24 ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled),
Then we get to what the punishment for this behavior was.
(Le 20:13)
13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
So now we see that God has been consistent through out the bible calling the behavior and the all of those who both did homosexuality and tolerated it both equally vile and worthy of death.
(Jud 7)
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
So to say the it was the pride of life and not giving to the poor is sadly just an unwillingness to take what it says in context of the entire scope of the biblical text on the subject.
Since we see also in Romans that favorite verse of the new testament that condemns homos and their supporters we see something which is mainly over looked from the teachers of today.
(Ro 1:26–32)
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
So now in the list of things here which of them equal the conclusion? Which of these things here meet the righteous judgement of God and are deserving of death?
all unrighteousness, :nono:
sexual immorality, :nono:
wickedness, :nono:
covetousness, :nono:
maliciousness; :nono:
full of envy, :nono:
murder, YES
strife, :nono:
deceit, :nono:
evil-mindedness; :nono:
they are whisperers, :nono:
backbiters, :nono:
haters of God, :nono:
violent, :nono:
proud, :nono:
boasters, :nono:
inventors of evil things, :nono:
disobedient to parents, YES
undiscerning, :nono:
untrustworthy, :nono:
unloving, :nono:
unforgiving, :nono:
unmerciful;:nono:
Really only two for sure and maybe one other so then this is a descriptive list about the minds of those who do the things that are deserving of death by Gods Righteous Decree. Which are what?
Well the text tells us it is about the mind of homos and their supporters.
So here we can see clearly now the rain is gone...
Homos are EVIL... They are not dumb just EVIL... Deserve death and that is obviously were Jesus would have come down on this one.
I can see it now all the posts about the woman caught in adultery as evidence that Jesus wouldn't support the death penalty for homos. :hammer:
That is for another thread since it is really a simple text to understand and doesn't even come close to meaning what the haters of God think it means. That being those who oppose the death penalty
genuineoriginal
New member
Off topic and pathetic. Stop trying to derail the thread.Are you committing sin when you work on the seventh-day of the week? Yes or no.
(I know you either will punt again, or equivocate. :chuckle
It has nothing to do with me understanding Matthew 7:12 (which I do), it has to do with how you used the verse.
You said, "I believe consensual sodomy is not a sin, 'Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them' (Matthew 7:12a NKJV)."
You have twisted the words of Jesus so they appear to be saying that men should sodomize other men because they want other men to sodomize them.
That is the most vile proof-texting I have seen on this site.