toldailytopic: During His earthly ministry would Jesus have approved of the homosexua

[Rusha]

So, you think:

• Homosexual desire is a sin
• God approves of homosexual desire
• Homosexuals that do not commit homosexual acts are living the homosexual lifestyle
• Married heterosexuals are committing homosexual acts by having heterosexual sex

You are very confused.

I disagree that Elo is confused ... his post was self-explanatory.

Do you consider the *desire* to have homosexual sex a sin?

Regardless of whether or not one is having sex, they do not lose their sexual orientation. A homosexual who remains abstinent from sex is still a homosexual ... just as a heterosexual who remains abstinent from sex is still a heterosexual.

Also ...

If homosexual desire/orientation is not sin, but homosexual acts are sin, the same sexual acts are sinful when married heterosexuals perform them. Do you agree? Yes or no. (My answer: Yes.)

I am fairly certain that Elo is referring to *specific* sexual acts rather than those who are participating in the acts.

If an act is wrong, it is wrong, regardless of the participants.

 

[genuineoriginal]

For example, I didn't say heterosexuals commit homosexual acts by having heterosexual sex.

Sure you did, it is right there for everyone to read.

Please learn to read, or ask an adult what acts homosexuals engage in that heterosexuals engage in, too.

I am an adult, so I can answer that question.
Homosexuals engage in the acts of going to concerts, paying taxes, driving cars, and buying groceries, just like heterosexuals.

The thing that distinguishes homosexuals from heterosexuals is that homosexuals will engage in acts of coitus with others of the same gender as themselves, but heterosexuals engage in acts of coitus with others of the opposing gender.

For some reason you are trying very hard to avoid the meaning of homosexual by refusing to acknowledge that the difference in the acts of coitus are the genders of the people engaging in those acts.

To get back on topic, Jesus would have condemned, not approved, of people engaging in acts of coitus with another person of the same gender.

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,​

 

[elohiym]

Whatever you say, Bill Clinton.

Let's see who is pulling a "Bill Clinton" here:

If a woman is sexually attracted to another woman, is that a sin?

Is a woman being attracted to another woman part of the homosexual lifestyle?

Is it just the homosexual acts that are sin?

Is a person engaging in the homosexual lifestyle only if they are engaging in homosexual acts?

 

[elohiym]

Never mind. I'll just let this stand as it is.

Suit yourself.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I disagree that Elo is confused ... his post was self-explanatory.

Not at all. His answers shows that he believes contradictory things about the issue of homosexuality.

I am fairly certain that Elo is referring to *specific* sexual acts rather than those who are participating in the acts.

If an act is wrong, it is wrong, regardless of the participants.

The Bible verse is very clear that it is not a specific sexual act that is an abomination, but that any non-specific sexual act being committed by two males is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.​

 

[elohiym]

Sure you did, it is right there for everyone to read.

Quit your lying. Rusha understood what I was asking.

The thing that distinguishes homosexuals from heterosexuals is that homosexuals will engage in acts of coitus with others of the same gender as themselves, but heterosexuals engage in acts of coitus with others of the opposing gender.

Homosexuals engage in sexual acts that heterosexuals engage in, too. I'm asking if the acts are sinful themselves, or only if homosexuals perform them. Since you are unfamiliar with the variety of sexual acts married heterosexuals engage, and I don't want to offend you, I'll give a PG rated example:

Heterosexual couples tongue kiss. Is it sinful for heterosexuals to tongue kiss? Is it sinful for homosexuals to tongue kiss?

 

[elohiym]

His answers shows that he believes contradictory things about the issue of homosexuality.

Nope. You just didn't understand the questions or my answers. They were conditional questions, and my answers were based on the conditions. Why don't you just answer them so we can see if your answers are contradictory?

 

[MaryContrary]

I agree with this. :thumb:

Just a little touchy about people claiming (or even seeming to) that homosexuality is an indicator that someone isn't saved. I'm sure you can understand why, but additionally because I know a lot of Christians who struggle with it who don't need to hear their brothers and sisters put their salvation in doubt for them. Or, worse, cause them to doubt God.

:think: I'm going to consider sharing a little story here. Depends if this thread's going to turn into a debate on whether or not Christians can sin.

So, yeah. Let's do that.

There was a girl (a lesbian), Tasha C., who came to Christ in large part due to the example some friends and I presented to her. We witnessed to her, challenged her and God used us to call to her. And she was saved.

But she was kinda shy and didn't hang around with us much. And when she did, she didn't engage much. Something of a wallflower. We'd talk now and again but that's all. Then one day she's talking to me and gets upset. I realize she's under a pretty crushing amount of doubt and feeling abandoned by God. Someone, it turns out, hadn't been very particular what they'd said around her and had given her the impression that one can't be a homosexual and a Christian. Someone who's opinion she valued way, way too much. Some idiot who'd apparently come right out and said, earnestly and with conviction, that Christians are not homosexuals. That a homosexual cannot be a Christian. They'd made that point pretty clearly, by all accounts.

Naturally, I was outraged. Furious. Who said this incredibly stupid thing and cause this poor girl so much doubt? Who, I demanded! So I could go and correct them. Maybe put a boot to their neck in the process, to be sure they understood.

Yeah, well guess who.

So I shared the Summer Glau thing I mentioned earlier, that Elo dishonored by disregarding. She was astonished. And we straightened a few things out. And I apologized.

I'm trying to get in the habit of being a bit more particular about what I say on certain subjects. Especially if I'm going to act like my opinion is worth a hill of beans. Because you never know who might be listening, you know?

 

[elohiym]

I am fairly certain that Elo is referring to *specific* sexual acts rather than those who are participating in the acts.

If an act is wrong, it is wrong, regardless of the participants.

Yep. :thumb:

 

[genuineoriginal]

If a woman is sexually attracted to another woman, is that a sin?

If she is not acting on that sexual attraction, it is not a sin, it is a temptation.
If she is lusting after the woman, then she has moved from being tempted to acting on that sexual attraction.

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

Is a woman being attracted to another woman part of the homosexual lifestyle?

If she is not acting on that sexual attraction, but works at suppressing that sexual attraction, it is not part of the homosexual lifestyle.

2 Corinthians 10:5 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;​

Is it just the homosexual acts that are sin?

Acting on the homosexual desires is sin, whether it is confined to lusting or progresses to committing homosexual acts of coitus.
Approving of homosexual acts of coitus is also a sin.

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.​

Is a person engaging in the homosexual lifestyle only if they are engaging in homosexual acts?

No, they are also engaging in the homosexual lifestyle if they appear to approve of it.

1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.​

 

[The Barbarian]

One way to check it would be to see how much emphasis God puts on it. How much space in the Bible does He give to it, compared to say, theft, avarice, dishonesty, and other forms of lust?

Seems like it isn't the most offensive thing to Him by a long shot.

Still a sin to do it, though. But we all sin; none of us ever avoid sin entirely.

It's the "my sin is nicer than your sin" crowd that's the problem. Oh, that's a sin too, isn't it? And God spends a lot of space on that one.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Homosexuals engage in sexual acts that heterosexuals engage in, too. I'm asking if the acts are sinful themselves, or only if homosexuals perform them.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.​

According to the verse, the sexual acts are not an abomination when engaged in by a man and his wife, but it is an abomination if two men engage in the same sexual acts.

Why are you having such a hard time understanding the plain meaning of the verse?
:bang:

 

[elohiym]

So, yeah. Let's do that.

There was a girl (a lesbian), Tasha C., who came to Christ in large part due to the example some friends and I presented to her. We witnessed to her, challenged her and God used us to call to her. And she was saved.

But she was kinda shy and didn't hang around with us much. And when she did, she didn't engage much. Something of a wallflower. We'd talk now and again but that's all. Then one day she's talking to me and gets upset. I realize she's under a pretty crushing amount of doubt and feeling abandoned by God. Someone, it turns out, hadn't been very particular what they'd said around her and had given her the impression that one can't be a homosexual and a Christian. Someone who's opinion she valued way, way too much. Some idiot who'd apparently come right out and said, earnestly and with conviction, that Christians are not homosexuals. That a homosexual cannot be a Christian. They'd made that point pretty clearly, by all accounts.

Naturally, I was outraged. Furious. Who said this incredibly stupid thing and cause this poor girl so much doubt? Who, I demanded! So I could go and correct them. Maybe put a boot to their neck in the process, to be sure they understood.

Yeah, well guess who.

So I shared the Summer Glau thing I mentioned earlier, that Elo dishonored by disregarding.

Huh? You are crazy, lady. I respected and responded to what you said. I even stated that I would not say you are not a Christian because you have homosexual desires.

I'm trying to get in the habit of being a bit more particular about what I say on certain subjects. Especially if I'm going to act like my opinion is worth a hill of beans. Because you never know who might be listening, you know?

So when I ask for clarification because I want to be careful about what I say on this subject, you mock me.

Hypocrite! :down:

 

[genuineoriginal]

One way to check it would be to see how much emphasis God puts on it.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.​

God uses the strongest word of condemnation (abomination) and decrees the strongest penalty (put to death) for the act.

That is a incredible amount of emphasis put into that verse.

 

[elohiym]

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.​

According to the verse, the sexual acts are not an abomination when engaged in by a man and his wife, but it is an abomination if two men engage in the same sexual acts.

Why are you having such a hard time understanding the plain meaning of the verse?
:bang:

Why are you having a hard time understand that male homosexuals do not engage in vaginal intercourse, but do engage in other acts that heterosexual couples engage in? Clearly, you are evading my questions like others.

 

[MaryContrary]

Huh? You are crazy, lady. I respected and responded to what you said. I even stated that I would not say you are not a Christian because you have homosexual desires.

Why would I do that? Others were making arguments that would imply you are not a Christian, not me.

You didn't ask a question, Mary. And you didn't ask a "yes or no" question.

What? :idunno:

You haven't addressed any of my points.

No, you claimed others had made arguments that would imply I was not a Christian, not you.
Then you said I never asked a question at all, which I'll admit wasn't specifically stated however obviously implied.
Then you pointed out I hadn't addressed any of your points, as if that had anything to do with anything.

So, no. You clearly did not answer the question. Certainly not in any way near as I asked, with a simple yes or no. In fact, if this is an answer to my question it's so far from a simple yes or no that an answer in binary code couldn't be more divergent.

So when I ask for clarification because I want to be careful about what I say on this subject, you mock me.

Hypocrite! :down:

Crap.

I lay may own sinful flesh right out there on table for discussion and you respond with a bunch of crap. You dishonor that and you dishonor me. I shudder to think if this was an issue I was uncertain or doubtful about what effect talking to you about it would have on me. I fear for anyone in that situation who might.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Why are you having a hard time understand that male homosexuals do not engage in vaginal intercourse

Please explain why you think this verse is talking about male homosexuals engaging in vaginal intercourse:

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.​

 

[elohiym]

If she is not acting on that sexual attraction, it is not a sin, it is a temptation.

If it's not a sin to be attracted to the same sex then homosexuality absent engaging in homosexual acts is not a sin.

Do you agree?

 

[elohiym]

Please explain why you think this verse is talking about male homosexuals engaging in vaginal intercourse:

I don't. You're being obtuse.

 

[elohiym]

No, you claimed others had made arguments that would imply I was not a Christian, not you.

Right.

Then you said I never asked a question at all, which I'll admit wasn't specifically stated however obviously implied.

You said, "tell me I'm not a Christian," after claiming you had homosexual attraction. My position throughout this thread has been that someone with same sex attraction can be a Christian. You flipping out here is misguided and pointless.

Then you pointed out I hadn't addressed any of your points, as if that had anything to do with anything.

It had to do with the fact that you didn't address my points, yet were engaging me, expecting me to answer your question.

So, no. You clearly did not answer the question. Certainly not in any way near as I asked, with a simple yes or no.

Please stop Mary. You are wrong.

In fact, if this is an answer to my question it's so far from a simple yes or no that an answer in binary code couldn't be more divergent.

You said to tell you that you're not a Christian. How am I supposed to answer that yes or no. I could have said "no," but meant that I'm not going to tell you, but I pointed to the fact that I have been arguing a position that would clearly imply that I think you are a Christian.

Crap.

That's what's flying from your keyboard, Mary.

I lay may own sinful flesh right out there on table for discussion and you respond with a bunch of crap.

Nonsense. Your imagining that.

I challenged your claim that a Christian can be a murderer while being saved (1Jn 3:15). If you don't want your claims challenged, don't make them. Simple. If you don't agree with my argument, rebut it. Simple. Instead, you became needlessly and selectively indignant towards me.

You dishonor that and you dishonor me.

You are wrong. That's only your misguided impression.

I shudder to think if this was an issue I was uncertain or doubtful about what effect talking to you about it would have on me.

You are overreacting to something that didn't even happen.