toldailytopic: Can a saved person lose their salvation?

B

bybee

New member
genuineoriginal said:

Matthew 13:18-23
18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.​

Some people claim that only the people that are saved can believe. Other people claim that only the people that believe are saved.

The way side did not believe and was not saved, or he was not saved so he did not believe.

The stony places believed for a while, but are not saved. Maybe he were never saved in the first place, so his belief was in vain? Maybe he never believed in the first place, so he was not saved? No, wait...he believed, and because of that he is saved even if he has no root and cannot continue in the belief? Can that really be true?

The thorns believed and continued to believe, but were unproductive, and are not saved. Maybe he was never saved in the first place, so his belief was in vain? Maybe he never believed in the first place, so he was not saved? No, wait...he believed, and because of that he is saved even if he does nothing? Can that really be true?

The good ground was saved, so he believed, endured, and was productive. Or the good ground believed, so he was saved, he endured, and he was productive.

If that is the case, then why did Jesus claim there were four types instead of two?

Could it be that Jesus was making different claims?
  • The way side did not believe, so was not saved.
  • The stony places believed, but did not endure, so was not saved.
  • The thorns believed and endured, but was unproductive, so was not saved.
  • The good ground believed, endured, and was productive, so was the only one of the four that was saved.
If the requirements for being saved are that you must believe, you must endure, and you must be productive, then you cannot be saved until after you have endured and were productive, but you can forfeit that salvation by not enduring and/or not being productive, even after you have believed.
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Salvation occurs. It is a gift freely offered. Once indwelt by The Holy Spirit a union occurs. This is undisolvable. A saved person will think and act according to the fruits of
The Holy Spirit
 
MaryContrary

MaryContrary

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zippy2006 said:
So positively define free will. :idunno: Calvinists like Lon say the exact same thing you are saying all the time, but this has to do with sin and grace, not President Obama. When you sin, do you do so freely? When you have faith in Christ, do you do so freely?

My definition of free will is essentially this: to have choice; to be able to choose something or not.

I believe that if we are forced to believe something against our will then our free will has been compromised.
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Let's come at this from another direction then. Let's say I read the Gospel and believe it. I then ask God to redeem me in Christ and help my unbelief. Righteousness is accounted to me and He grants me His faith, just as I asked and just as He promised. Where has my free will been compromised?

Yet again, this is a gift. When you accept it, it becomes yours. How does this compromise free will? If you don't want it, then don't accept it.

You need to make up your mind whether you're going to dismiss my answers by characterizing me as a Calvinist or whether you're going to argue free will requires we be able to act contrary to our nature.
 
john w

john w

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http://media.nj.com/jets_impact/photo/giants-punter-matt-dodge-in-action-2010-farrell

http://media.nj.com/jets_impact/photo/giants-punter-matt-dodge-in-action-2010-farrell

Cruciform said:
1 Cor. 15:1-11


What I referenced in Post #29 was not Muslim, not Mormon, nor my opinion, but a survey of relevant biblical texts, your rejection of which is noted.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
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Translation:

giants-punter-matt-dodge-in-action-2010-farrell-a1041cd370d9e9ef.jpg
 
zippy2006

zippy2006

New member
MaryContrary said:
Let's come at this from another direction then. Let's say I read the Gospel and believe it. I then ask God to redeem me in Christ and help my unbelief. Righteousness is accounted to me and He grants me His faith, just as I asked and just as He promised. Where has my free will been compromised?

Yet again, this is a gift. When you accept it, it becomes yours. How does this compromise free will? If you don't want it, then don't accept it.
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This rendering does not compromise it, what you said earlier does:

MaryContrary said:
We aren't redeemed because we have faith in Christ. We have faith in Christ because we are redeemed.

If we had to have faith to be saved, no one would ever be saved.
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(they are completely different things) So which is it?

You need to make up your mind whether you're going to dismiss my answers by characterizing me as a Calvinist or whether you're going to argue free will requires we be able to act contrary to our nature.
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I wasn't dismissing your answers, I was accurately putting a label to them. Maybe you just don't fully understand Calvinism. :idunno:

Yes, I think free will allows us to act contrary to our nature. Adam and Eve were not created with a sinful nature. But the will has to do with our thoughts and beliefs, which do not necessarily correspond to reality. We have the freedom to deny reality if we so choose. God prefers that our will and reality be in accord.
 
john w

john w

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Desert Reign said:
Can a saved person lose their salvation?

Salvation is a relationship with God. Relationship is a two-way thing. It depends on both parties. We know, for God's part, he is constant and faithful. For our part, all we have to do is to stay faithful. That is our part in the relationship. The rest is just theology.
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Made up. Salvation is the deliverance, and preservation, from a danger. That danger? The wages of sin is death.

Sin-singular, not plural.

" For our part, all we have to do is to stay faithful."-DesertRat

1.The standard required by a Holy LORD God of " stay faithful?" 100% compliance. Memorize:

The righteousness of God-survey Romans 1 ff. Only one person met that bar-the Lord Jesus Christ. You fail-Romans 3:19-23 KJV.

2. Translated:I, Desert Rat, will not shut up, admit my coming short/guilt, and my assertion "all we have to do is to stay faithful," is my admission that I do not "get it," as I am in a funk as to why the Lord Jesus Christ died, and rose again, as I do not need that-all I need to do is "stay faithful," meaning I am lost.

We know.
 
john w

john w

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Cruciform said:
"clowns" = "anyone who fails to line up with SOZO's personal theological preferences and opinions" :doh:​



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
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"anyone who fails to line up with SOZO's personal theological preferences and opinions"


Vs. "impersonal theological preferences and opinions?"

Sophistry, from A Roman.
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
No.

Rather than repeat what other posters have pointed out from scripture,

I'll just say, No, absolutely not.

oatmeal
 
vegascowboy

vegascowboy

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Step One: Recognize that you are a sinner.


Romans 3:10-12

As it is written:


There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.
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Romans 3:23

...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...
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Step Two: Realize that there is nothing you can do to bring about your salvation. No amount of works will get you into heaven. Jesus Christ is God, not you. You need Him. He alone Has died for you.


Romans 10:9

...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
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Romans 10:13

For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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Step Three: Recognize the truth that, once you are saved, you will remain saved in God's grace forever. This gift cannot be lost. It will not be taken from you.


Romans 8:15-17

For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.


Romans 8:38-39

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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The question then becomes...why do some folks fear the truth? Why do they read what is plain to be read and fail to understand the simple beauty and eternal truth of God's word?

It seems that fear rules many lives. It should be clearly understood that in Christ's perfect love, fear of this kind vanishes forever.
 
john w

john w

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aCultureWarrior said:
I don't "believe", I know that once we are truly saved we have to be OBEDIENT to God.

That's why I question your salvation ghost (racist jokes, hanging out with drunks like Billy Bob).
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"I know that once we are truly saved we have to be OBEDIENT to God."

"truly" saved? Like "truly" dead, buried, risen, pregnant? How "truly?"

OBEDIENT to God=there goes the cross, resurrection-no need for it, as I, CultureWarrior, can do it on my own, and just what was the purpose of the dbr?

These threads confirm what members of the boc are arguing-the lost, are lost, because they are clueless as to what happened 2000 years ago, as pertaining to the sin/sins issue, and why.

Pay attention: The standard required of "be OBEDIENT to God" is 100% compliance-no grading on the curve.

And, even if you were 100% compliant, you still would be lost:

Sin-singular, not sins-plural.

The wages of sin(my note-singular) is death.

Romans 8:3 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin(my note-singular), condemned sin(my note-singular) in the flesh:
 
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john w

john w

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My dad, by his own admission, a Roman Catholic, died Thursday. I am attending the "mass" and funeral, tomorrow. I prayed that he believed 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV before he died. My last talk with him was a week before, when I told him to read, and believe, the gospel of Christ.
 
Jedidiah

Jedidiah

New member
john w said:
My dad, by his own admission, a Roman Catholic, died Thursday. I am attending the "mass" and funeral, tomorrow. I prayed that he believed 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV before he died. My last talk with him was a week before, when I told him to read, and believe, the gospel of Christ.
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Dear john w,

My condolences, so sorry for your loss. :cry:

In Him,
-Jed
 
G

Gurucam

Well-known member
Knight said:
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for April 9th, 2012 10:21 AM


toldailytopic: Can a saved person lose their salvation?






Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.
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Didn't (the previously saved) Adam fall from grace?​
 
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