Theology Club: Today Many in the Neo-MAD Camp are King James Only

[Tambora]

All you do is ask more questions and you never answered any of mine.

You obviously have no understanding of any of this and that is why you refuse to answer my questions.

The very scenario that you have expressed is that Christ is still alive after the Passover lambs have been slain on the 14th.

Either Christ died on Passover day (14th), or He died after the Passover day.
If Christ was eating the Passover meal with His disciples on the 14th, then obviously Christ did not die on the 14th. Right?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This passage, if 1 John was for the Body of Christ, eliminates Jerry from the Body.


1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


There is no wiggle room there...unless Jerry does righteousness 100% of the time.

If we are to believe your meaning for 1 john 3:10 we must believe that Peter was not saved:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2;11-14).​

According to you the Jews had to do righteousness 100% of the time in order to be saved so you must believe that Peter was not saved because he did not do righteousness 100% of the time.

Why do you continue to deny the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24 where He told the Jews that all they had to had to do was believe.

Havre you made it your life's work to try to prove that what the Lord Jesus said cannot be trusted?

 

[Danoh]

Are you Danoh Shore?

No, but after time on here I'm beginning to think I'm Paulie Shore, lol

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Havre you made it your life's work to try to prove that what the Lord Jesus said cannot be trusted?

I do. You have truncated what he has said to soundbytes.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

According to you the Jews had to do righteousness 100% of the time in order to be saved so you must believe that Peter was not saved because he did not do righteousness 100% of the time.

Why don't you believe 1 John?

Leave it where it belongs, in the tribulation when there will be a sharp line drawn between the children of God and the children of the devil.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The very scenario that you have expressed is that Christ is still alive after the Passover lambs have been slain on the 14th.

Either Christ died on Passover day (14th), or He died after the Passover day.
If Christ was eating the Passover meal with His disciples on the 14th, then obviously Christ did not die on the 14th. Right?

You must be ignorant of the passover offerings which were offered in the Temple during the feast of unleaved bread:

"Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there. Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life" (Deut.16:2-3).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why don't you believe 1 John?

Why didn't you answer the points which I made because what I said proves that your interpretation is absurd! if we are to believe your interpretation then we must believe that Peter was not saved.

You prove over and over that you are incapable of understanding the Scriptures. Even though the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24 that the Jews who lived under the law were saved when they believed you say that the were not saved until they believed and did works.

 

[Tambora]

These Passover offerings took place between three and six o'clock and the Lord Jesus was on the Cross during those hours.

That would be the tail end of the 14th, right?

On what day was the last supper?

Either the meal we call 'the last supper' with His disciples took place AFTER the Passover lambs had been slain on the tail end of the 14th, or that meal was BEFORE the Passover lambs were slain, and therefore could not be the Passover meal.

Which view do you lean towards, Jerry? Was the last supper the Passover meal or not?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Either the meal we call 'the last supper' with His disciples took place AFTER the Passover lambs had been slain on the tail end of the 14th, or that meal was BEFORE the Passover lambs were slain, and therefore could not be the Passover meal.

Can you not understand that the Lord Jesus was on the Cross on the 15th and that happened when these Passover offerings were being sacrificed in the Temple during the feast of unleavened bread:

"Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there. Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life" (Deut.16:2-3).​

The feast of unleavened bread was a memorial to the time when the Israelites left Egypt (Ex.12:17) and it lasted seven days (Lev.23:6).

Here we see exactly what was being referred to as the Lord's Passover:

"And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's Passover" (Ex.12:11).​

That happened on the 14th:

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).​

the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th and so this verse is describing the events which happened on the 14th:

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mk.14:12).​

 

[Tambora]

*highlights mine*

the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th

Yep. There has been no argument to the contrary.
The 14th was the God appointed time for the Passover lamb to be killed.
It was the blood of the Passover lamb killed on the 14th that saved all the firstborn from death, as the angel passed over all that had the blood of the Passover lamb.
There was no Passover lamb killed on the 15th, because the angel has already passed over all the firstborn with the blood from the 14th day kill.

the Lord Jesus was on the Cross on the 15th

Then He wasn't killed on the God appointed day for the Passover lamb.
Easy peasy, right?

 

[Danoh]

In the KJV we see a translation at Matthew 26:17 which says that the first day of the feast of unleavened bread preceded the Passover:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Mt.26:17; KJV).​

This translation is obviously wrong because the Passover always preceded the first day of unleavened bread:

"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening, is the Lord’s passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to the Lord" (Lev.23:5-6; RSV).​

The "Passover" was a memorial to the events that happened when the Lord said that he would "pass over" the blood stained houses of the Israelites (Ex.12:13-14).

The feast of unleavened bread was a memorial to the time when the Israelites left Egypt (Ex.12:17).

So the memorial of Passover was in regard to events which took place IN EGYPT. On the other hand, the memorial called the "feast of unleavened bread" is in regard to events when the Israelites LEFT EGYPT.

Therefore, if we are to believe the Scriptures it would be ridiculous to argue that the first day of the feast of unleavened bread preceded the passive with all these facts before us.

So the translators of the KJV made a huge blunder by having the first day of the feast of unleavened bread precede the Passover.

I prefer to stick to the translation found here since it is obviously the correct translation:

"Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the passover?” (Mt.26:17; RSV).​

Makes one wonder why Jerry did not pick on a passage like Acts 12:

1. Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
2. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
3. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
4. And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

Jerry obviously has yet to figure out what the significance is of mentioning "days of" unleavened as if they are prior to the Passover.

Of course, now he'll pick on the rendering of Paschal as Easter, there; ever ignorant of the method behind such seeming surface level madness as to such passages, their wording, and or their translation.

But there it is; one of other examples - "then were the days of unleavened day... intending after the Passover..."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

*[Then He wasn't killed on the God appointed day for the Passover lamb.
Easy peasy, right?

WRONG!

You just cannot understand that the Passover sacrifice also happened on the 15th and continued to the 21st, the time of the feast of unleavened bread:

"Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there. Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life" (Deut.16:2-3).​

The reference to the command that unleavened bread be eaten for seven days is speaking about what happened on the "feastof unleavened bread," which happened on the15th:

"And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread" (Lev.23:6).​

So contrary to what you said, He was indeed killed on the God appointed day for the Passover lamb.

He was crucified on the 15th and on the 15th the Passover lambs were sacrificed in the Temple.

Do you deny that on the 15th that Passover offerings were being sacrificed?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Makes one wonder why Jerry did not pick on a passage like Acts 12:

1. Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
2. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
3. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)

The days of unleavened bread began on the 14th when the Jews ate the Passover lamb with unleavened bread:

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).​

Then beginning the next day unleavened bread was eaten and it continued for the next six days:

"And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread" (Lev.23:6).​

So the phrase "days of unleavened bread" is not a phrase that applies exclusively to the "feast of unleavened bread."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't know why you keep on asking me the same thing when the answer is already there.

Your idea is easily shown to be in error.

First let us look at this translation from the KJV in a little more detail:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?... Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me" (Mt.26:17-18,20-23).​

Now let us look at the same exact event described in the book of Mark:

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?... And in the evening he cometh with the twelve....And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I? And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish" (Mk.14:12,17-20).​

It is obvious to anyone with an open mind that the the events described in Matthew which I quoted are the same exact events described in Mark which I quoted. And these words from Mark prove that the day spoken of is not the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, as you imagine:

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover" (Mk.14:12).​

The Passover lamb was killed before the 14th was over, not the 15th, the first day of the feast of unleavened bread:

"And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread" (Lev.23:6).​

That contradicts your idea that Mark 14:12 and Matthew 26:17 are describing events of the first day of the feast of unleavened bread.

The observance of the Passover Seder was on the 14th so the Passover lamb must be killed by that day so it can be eaten:

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the Passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).​

Therefore, it is impossible that you are right when you assert that the words "first day of the feast of unleavened bread" is the correct translation in this verse:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Mt.26:17; KJV).​

Since this is the first time that I have made this argument it is impossible that you have answered it already. So if you want to defend your idea then you must address what I said on this post.

 

[Danoh]

The days of unleavened bread began on the 14th when the Jews ate the Passover lamb with unleavened bread:

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).​

Then beginning the next day unleavened bread was eaten and it continued for the next six days:

"And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread" (Lev.23:6).​

So the phrase "days of unleavened bread" is not a phrase that applies exclusively to the "feast of unleavened bread."

You might as well have said "I used to be schizophrenic, but now we're okay."

:bang:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You might as well have said "I used to be schizophrenic, but now we're okay."

You might as well said, "I don't care what the Scriptures say!"

 

[Danoh]

You might as well said, "I don't care what the Scriptures say!"

You're just mad cause of this - post #14 on the following link:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111090

You want that Crow raw, or as is with hot sauce and corn tortillas?

Now, go away pseudo expert.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Can't wait til Jerry is either banned forever, gets a life, or drops dead.

Your condition is getting worse and you really need professional help.

So I will no longer respond to anything which you say until your condition improves.

I pray to the Lord that you will seek help.

 

[whitestone]

ok,you talked me into it,,, lets say I'm Greek no one in my genealogy was ever in Egypt,they never painted the lambs blood above their door post,they never passed down to me to eat bitter herbs and spices in remembrance of the Passover and then several generations later this guy named Paul converts me to Christian,,,should I eat the Passover even if none of my forefathers were in Egypt and he never actually passed over them?

 

[Tambora]

WRONG!

You just cannot understand that the Passover sacrifice also happened on the 15th and continued to the 21st,

Unleavened bread was eaten for 7 days, not the Passover lamb.

There was only 1 day that Passover lamb was killed --- the 14th.
There was only 1 evening that the Passover lamb was eaten, and nothing was to be left of it by morning (Ex. 12:10).
There was only 1 night that the angel passed over the firstborn.