Theology Club: Today Many in the Neo-MAD Camp are King James Only

[Jerry Shugart]

Again, though the first day of the feast of unleavened bread does not precede the feast of Passover, at the same time, within Jewish culture - all the way back to way back when - at times, either the words Unleavened Bread or Passover are used when referring to both.

The "first day of unleavened bread" was the day when the Passover lamb was killed:

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mk.14:12).​

"Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed" (Lk.22:7).​

The Passover Seder is not observed until the Passover lamb is killed and the Passover Seder is observed on the 14th day of the month:

And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the Passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).​

So the words "first day of unleavened bread" cannot be referring to the "first day of the feast of unleavened bread" because that feast did not happen until the 15th day of the month:

"In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread" (Lev.23:4-5).​

so you are wrong when you assert that when the term "unleavened bread' is used it refers to the "feast of unleavened bread."

 

[Tambora]

That is now what I asked Desert Reign. Here is what I actually said:

So when we examine the context of what is said at Matthew 26:17 the subject is not really really the Passover Seder but instead the "overall feast of unleavened bread"?:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the Passover" (Mt.26:17-19).​

Is that what you are saying? That every time the word "Passover" is used in these verses it is referring to "the overall feast of Unleavened Bread"?​

I asked if every time the word "Passover" is used in the verses which I quoted is it referring to "the overall feast of Unleavened Bread."

What is your opinion?

Context.
Obviously the first of the verse is talking about the first day of the whole festival. The day in which PREPARATIONS are made for the meal including the Passover lamb and unleavened bread.

Luke confirms that this whole festival time can be referred to as Passover.
Mark (Mark 14:12) confirms that this whole festival time can be referred to as Unleavened Bread.
So the first day of the festival can be called either Passover or Unleavened Bread.

And that right there answers the question of which comes first - Passover or Unleavened Bread. Both terms can refer to the same starting day. So, the use of unleavened bread in Matthew does not dictate that it is after the day the passover lamb is killed.
That notion of yours has been refuted.

But only one mealtime of the entire festival included the Passover lamb. So the meal itself can be referred to as "Passover".

The verse says that on the first day of the whole festival (which can be called either 'Passover' or 'Unleavened Bread'), preparations were done to be ready for the Passover meal. But it is the same meal that also includes unleavened bread. The only difference is that unleavened bread must be eaten the entire week (not just the one meal).

Do you understand this much so far?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Context.
Obviously the first of the verse is talking about the first day of the whole festival. The day in which PREPARATIONS are made for the meal including the Passover lamb and unleavened bread.

Why didn't you answer my question?

So when we examine the context of what is said at Matthew 26:17 the subject is not really really the Passover Seder but instead the "overall feast of unleavened bread"?:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the Passover" (Mt.26:17-19).​

Is that what you are saying? That every time the word "Passover" is used in these verses it is referring to "the overall feast of Unleavened Bread"?​

I am asking you if every time the word "Passover" is used in the verses which I quoted is it referring to "the overall feast of Unleavened Bread."

What is your answer?

 

[Danoh]

The "first day of unleavened bread" was the day when the Passover lamb was killed:

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mk.14:12).​

"Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed" (Lk.22:7).​

The Passover Seder is not observed until the Passover lamb is killed and the Passover Seder is observed on the 14th day of the month:

And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the Passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).​

So the words "first day of unleavened bread" cannot be referring to the "first day of the feast of unleavened bread" because that feast did not happen until the 15th day of the month:

"In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread" (Lev.23:4-5).​

so you are wrong when you assert that when the term "unleavened bread' is used it refers to the "feast of unleavened bread."

If I am wrong; that is on me.

And your decades old need to inject yourself into every thread and or start your own, ever hounding after others attempting to have them cry uncle to your need to prove them wrong in your words repeated back to you by them, please...is not going to change that.

Yeah, I know; you seek to rescue all into submission to your views.

What you are is a David Koresh/Jim Jones wanna be.

That's right; I am counterattacking the messenger.

You - the very fool who began this fool attack of his against the messenger, the very moment his warped by pride mind labeled the messenger "Neo-Mad."

The very fool who then followed that with more attacks.

Attacks like "wrong... stupid... not very bright.." and all those other attacks on any and all messengers who either do not kow-tow to your tiny man version of your father's "I will be like the Most High," or disagree with your deluded conclusion that they are "wrong."

 

[whitestone]

Do you really believe that the first day of the feast of unleavened bread preceded the Passover?

Of course it didn't. The translators of the KJV added the following words in "bold" which are not found in any of the Greek manuscripts:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Mt.26:17; KJV).​

So do you still think the the KJV is without error?

Actually in the old days the old KJV bibles stated in their "pre-face" that the words that were in "italics" were not in the original manuscripts but were added to make the sentence flow more smoothly. Now the words you gave in bold are in the older copies of the KJV in italics(and then so were added/not found in original manuscripts). So in this case(the one you gave/17) they are added,and incorrectly.

I still have my grandmothers old "pilgrims edition teachers KJV" which is printed in 1880's,, in it's preface it explains the words in italics but in all the other KJV's I have(newer ones) the preface is no longer included. lol,the words in italics are something to take a second look at I think,,,

 

[Tambora]

Why didn't you answer my question?

that's what I figured. You are going to ignore what I have posted so we can work through the meaning of the Matthew verses.

I was answering you, Jerry.
Until you can confirm that you understand what I posted so far, you will just be going around in circles.

And until you concede that your notion of Matthew using the term 'unleavened bread' does not dictate that the day was after the Passover lamb was killed, you will just be going around in circles.

You don't seem to be too interested in going through the process of working out the details in order to have a better understanding.
So I am just going to assume, as you often do, that you don't know squat about it and are unable to study through a point without a slap-down ready-made answer all tied up in a neat little bow for you, and therefore, you ignore what you don't understand rather than studying it out with someone.
It's deja' vu all over again with you.

 

[Desert Reign]

Couldn't agree more Dessert Reign,

So what you are saying is that you agree with me except for the areas where you agree with me?

By the way, I am not eaten after the main course.

 

[Desert Reign]

that's what I figured. You are going to ignore what I have posted so we can work through the meaning of the Matthew verses.

I was answering you, Jerry.
Until you can confirm that you understand what I posted so far, you will just be going around in circles.

And until you concede that your notion of Matthew using the term 'unleavened bread' does not dictate that the day was after the Passover lamb was killed, you will just be going around in circles.

You don't seem to be too interested in going through the process of working out the details in order to have a better understanding.
So I am just going to assume, as you often do, that you don't know squat about it and are unable to study through a point without a slap-down ready-made answer all tied up in a neat little bow for you, and therefore, you ignore what you don't understand rather than studying it out with someone.
It's deja' vu all over again with you.

I already figured this out when I wrote my last post to him. He insists on repeating how silly he is.

 

[Danoh]

So what you are saying is that you agree with me except fr the areas where you agree with me?

By the way, I am not eaten after the main course.

I hope not, lol

 

[Jerry Shugart]

that's what I figured. You are going to ignore what I have posted so we can work through the meaning of the Matthew verses.

All you are doing is saying things which provide you an excuse for failing to answer my question. If you want to answer then go ahead. If you don't then I couldn't care less.

No one has said that every single time the word "Passover" is used, that it is referring to the whole festival.

That is now what I asked Desert Reign. Here is what I actually said:

So when we examine the context of what is said at Matthew 26:17 the subject is not really really the Passover Seder but instead the "overall feast of unleavened bread"?:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the Passover" (Mt.26:17-19).​

Is that what you are saying? That every time the word "Passover" is used in these verses it is referring to "the overall feast of Unleavened Bread"?​

I asked if every time the word "Passover" is used in the verses which I quoted is it referring to "the overall feast of Unleavened Bread."

What is your opinion?

You were eager to answer earlier but now you continue to refuse to answer. As I said, I couldn't care less if you refuse to answer.

 

[Tambora]

I already figured this out when I wrote my last post to him. He insists on repeating how silly he is.

I've figured it out before, that it was fruitless to study the bible with Jerry because he doesn't want to 'study' with any of us, he just wants to soapbox.
Don't know why I thought it would be different this time. Makes me the stupid one for trying AGAIN, thinking there would be a different result. But it does not make my info stupid.

 

[Desert Reign]

I would like to repeat that I do not support the MAD position, nor do I support the KJVO position, which were the main subjects of this thread. However, it doesn't help, if you want to bring some evidence against these positions, to bring false evidence based on your disagreeing with a translation that has been in existence for 400 years and supported by many other translations, when you yourself have never studied ancient Greek or the art of translation.

KJVOnlyists will strangle themselves eventually and MADdists will go their own sweet way so long as they don't disturb others, which they already don't. There is no need to be particularly aggressive against them. Leave them be. They aren't harming anyone. But where the harm is, is when you teach other people as saving truth when you yourself have not gone through the standard disciplines of study. When you make out you have technical knowledge when you haven't. I hope people, especially KJVOnlyists and MADdists, understand that the fact that I am opposing the OP here is a testament to my being objective about the issue and I hope they will follow my example, because even though we may disagree with each other, as is inevitable at some time or another, we still follow the same Lord who is the truth and consequently we shall commit ourselves to high standards of truth and argumentation, along with honesty.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I've figured it out before, that it was fruitless to study the bible with Jerry because he doesn't want to 'study' with any of us, he just wants to soapbox.

I knew from the beginning it would be impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion with any of you from the Neo-MAD camp because you refuse to believe the words of the Lord Jesus which He said to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Even after I quoted this verse those in the Neo-MAD community continue to insist that no one living under the law could be saved by just believing because they had to do works also. They just deny the words of the Lord at John 5:24!

It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion on spiritual matters with people who have a spiritual I.Q. which is practically nonexistent.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I already answered this with reference to Luke 22:1.

Here is what you said about that:

I have just been looking up several explanations of this discrepancy and they are mostly unsupported ideas. But the best one I saw was both simple and very well supported by Luke 22:1, which simply subsumes Passover in the overall feast of Unleavened Bread. So when they talk about the first day of Unleavened Bread they mean the preparation day of the passover.

So when we examine the context of what is said at Matthew 26:17 the subject is not really really the Passover Seder but instead the "overall feast of unleavened bread"?:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the Passover" (Mt.26:17-19).​

Is that what you are saying? That every time the word "Passover" is used in these verses it is referring to "the overall feast of Unleavened Bread"?

 

[Tambora]

I knew from the beginning it would be impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion with any of you

You were right Jerry!!!!
It is impossible for you to carry on an intelligent discussion with us.

You've shown that time after time after time.

 

[Tambora]

Is that what you are saying? That every time the word "Passover" is used in these verses it is referring to "the overall feast of Unleavened Bread"?

ROFL!

I can tell, by what folks have been saying here, what their answer is.
Why can't you?
Did you ever consider that the problem just might be with you?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You were right Jerry!!!!
It is impossible for you to carry on an intelligent discussion with us.

You've shown that time after time after time.

Do you think that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith alone?

 

[Tambora]

Do you think that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith alone?

Have you conceded that just because the verse refers to the first day of unleavened bread, that it does not have to be referring to after the Passover lamb was slain?

 

[Tambora]

I would like to repeat that I do not support the MAD position, nor do I support the KJVO position, which were the main subjects of this thread. However, it doesn't help, if you want to bring some evidence against these positions, to bring false evidence based on your disagreeing with a translation that has been in existence for 400 years and supported by many other translations, when you yourself have never studied ancient Greek or the art of translation.

KHVOnlyists will strangle themselves eventually and MADdists will go their own sweet way so long as they don't disturb others, which they already don't. There is no need to be particularly aggressive against them. Leave them be. They aren't harming anyone. But where the harm is, is when you teach other people as saving truth when you yourself have not gone through the standard disciplines of study. When you make out you have technical knowledge when you haven't. I hope people, especially KJVOnlyists and MADdists, understand that the fact that I am opposing the OP here is a testament to my being objective about the issue and I hope they will follow my example, because even though we may disagree with each other, as is inevitable at some time or another, we still follow the same Lord who is the truth and consequently we shall commit ourselves to high standards of truth and argumentation, along with honesty.

I'm not a KJV ONLY person.
I don't know what label Jerry is going to use for me now.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Have you conceded that just because the verse refers to the first day of unleavened bread, that it does not have to be referring to after the Passover lamb was slain?

That does not answer my question and you know it. Here it is again and perhaps this time you will actually answer it:

Do you think that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith alone?​