This day have I begotten you

[daqq]

Hi Oatmeal, that speaks of the quote which was at one time found in Luke 3:22-23.
The decree of Psalm 2:7 still appears in Codex Bezae:

http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-NN-00002-00041/371

LUKE 3:22-23 BEZAE (D)
—————— ΚΑΙ ΚΑΤΑΒΗΝΑΙ ΤΟ ΠΝΕΥΜΑ
ΤΟ ΑΓΙΟΝ ϹΩΜΑΤΙΚΩ ΕΙΔΕΙ ΩϹ ΠΕΡΙϹΤΕΡΑΝ
ΕΙϹ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΦΩΝΗΝ ΕΚ ΤΟΥ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΥ
ΓΕΝΕϹΘΑΙ ΥΙΟϹ ΜΟΥ ΕΙ ϹΥ ΕΓΩ ϹΗΜΕΡΟΝ
ΓΕΓΕΝΝΗΚΑ ϹΕ:ΗΝ ΔΕ Ι̅Η̅Ϲ ΩϹ ΕΤΩΝ ·Λ·
ΑΡΧΟΜΕΝΟϹ ΩϹ ΕΝΟΜΕΙΖΕ ΤΟ ΕΙΝΑΙ
ΥΙΟϹ —————— ΙΩϹΗΦ

Luke 3:22-23 Bezae (D)
And the Spirit the Holy One descended in corporeal-bodily form as a dove to-into him; and a voice came out of the heavens, "You are My Son, This day I have begotten you", moreover Ι̅H was about 30 years of age, as customary for one commencing to be a son — Yoseph (of Heli . . .)

So the real question is why is the Psalm 2:7 decree not found in English translations of Luke 3:22-3 anymore? or why do they no longer at least make note of the reading from this Codex since it is one of the four most important codices to Christianity? You might notice many words also do not agree with what now appears in most codices, manuscripts, and fragments, (from the third century onward, that is, when the "Eternal Son" doctrine was begotten in Rome, lol).

Do you see no difference in what has been posted and is now quoted herein above, Evil.Eye? Look at what you posted for an image file, and look at what I posted for an image file: which one was posted out of hate, and is full of death; and which one was posted out of love for the Word, and a desire to find the truth, and to share here and discuss with brethren? I have laid down my life to be able to post what I have posted in this thread. Why do you not do the same and gather up some real truth, or at least something worth discussing, something that actually concerns real Christianity and the holy Scripture?

 

[oatmeal]

Hi Oatmeal, that speaks of the quote which was at one time found in Luke 3:22-23.
The decree of Psalm 2:7 still appears in Codex Bezae:

http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-NN-00002-00041/371

LUKE 3:22-23 BEZEA (D)
—————— ΚΑΙ ΚΑΤΑΒΗΝΑΙ ΤΟ ΠΝΕΥΜΑ
ΤΟ ΑΓΙΟΝ ϹΩΜΑΤΙΚΩ ΕΙΔΕΙ ΩϹ ΠΕΡΙϹΤΕΡΑΝ
ΕΙϹ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΦΩΝΗΝ ΕΚ ΤΟΥ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΥ
ΓΕΝΕϹΘΑΙ ΥΙΟϹ ΜΟΥ ΕΙ ϹΥ ΕΓΩ ϹΗΜΕΡΟΝ
ΓΕΓΕΝΝΗΚΑ ϹΕ:ΗΝ ΔΕ Ι̅Η̅Ϲ ΩϹ ΕΤΩΝ ·Λ·
ΑΡΧΟΜΕΝΟϹ ΩϹ ΕΝΟΜΕΙΖΕ ΤΟ ΕΙΝΑΙ
ΥΙΟϹ —————— ΙΩϹΗΦ

Luke 3:22-23 Bezea (D)
And the Spirit the Holy One descended in corporeal-bodily form as a dove to-into him; and a voice came out of the heavens, "You are My Son, This day I have begotten you", moreover Ι̅H was about 30 years of age, as customary for one commencing to be a son — Yoseph (of Heli . . .)

So the real question is why is the Psalm 2:7 decree not found in English translations of Luke 3:22-3 anymore? or why do they no longer at least make note of the reading from this Codex since it is one of the four most important codices to Christianity? You might notice many words also do not agree with what now appears in most codices, manuscripts, and fragments, (from the third century onward, that is, when the "Eternal Son" doctrine was begotten in Rome, lol).

That is a good question. There are other passages like that where texts are not translated accordingly.

 

[daqq]

That is a good question. There are other passages like that where texts are not translated accordingly.

Indeed, many.

 

[Clete]

These anti-Trinity threads are always populated with lunatics so I make no attempt to argue since its a useless waste of time.

I just dropped in to state plainly that if you do not believe that God Himself died for your sins, you are not saved. You profess a religion other than Christianity and are lost in your sin and will spend eternity in Hell unless you repent. There's a reason it had to be God Who died on that cross - no other death would have been sufficient to pay the debt justice demands.



Okay, you can all go back to being lunatic, bat-fur crazy again!

 

[Clete]

Daqq can't figure out that it's judgemental to tell someone that they shouldn't judge! :rotfl:

 

[keypurr]

These anti-Trinity threads are always populated with lunatics so I make no attempt to argue since its a useless waste of time.

I just dropped in to state plainly that if you do not believe that God Himself died for your sins, you are not saved. You profess a religion other than Christianity and are lost in your sin and will spend eternity in Hell unless you repent. There's a reason it had to be God Who died on that cross - no other death would have been sufficient to pay the debt justice demands.



Okay, you can all go back to being lunatic, bat-fur crazy again!

My God can not die Clete, he sent his created son to do that for us. John 3:16, that is Christian 101 stuff.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[daqq]

These anti-Trinity threads are always populated with lunatics so I make no attempt to argue since its a useless waste of time.

I just dropped in to state plainly that if you do not believe that God Himself died for your sins, you are not saved. You profess a religion other than Christianity and are lost in your sin and will spend eternity in Hell unless you repent. There's a reason it had to be God Who died on that cross - no other death would have been sufficient to pay the debt justice demands.



Okay, you can all go back to being lunatic, bat-fur crazy again!

Daqq can't figure out that it's judgemental to tell someone that they shouldn't judge! :rotfl:

If you too are going to judge, seeing that you have now clearly done so without cause, then you should not be surprised if and when your judgment is thrown right back into your own bosom. This is not face to face or in person, but is an internet forum board, where your words can destroy someone else's reputation and name. I have no unction, compulsion, or restraint that forces me to allow you to lie about me or to allow you to spread falsehoods about myself or what I believe. Therefore treat others how you wish to be treated because I will respond to you accordingly. I treat everyone on an individual basis, like human beings, unlike most of your crowd who seek to lump people into label-blocks so that you can herd them into categories and dismiss everything they say. Your judgment is meaningless to me: judge yourself first, O man, because I have the scripture and He and it already has and will destroy your false doctrine.

 

[daqq]

These anti-Trinity threads are always populated with lunatics so I make no attempt to argue since its a useless waste of time.

I just dropped in to state plainly that if you do not believe that God Himself died for your sins, you are not saved. You profess a religion other than Christianity and are lost in your sin and will spend eternity in Hell unless you repent. There's a reason it had to be God Who died on that cross - no other death would have been sufficient to pay the debt justice demands.

Okay, you can all go back to being lunatic, bat-fur crazy again!

Hebrews 10:4-14 KJV
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: [Psalm 40:6]
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. [Psalm 40:6]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [Psalm 40:7-8]
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Psalm 40:6-12 KJV
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. [Hebrews 10:5-6]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, [Hebrews 10:7]
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. [Hebrews 10:7]
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.
12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.

"For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head". . .

So much for the heretic head-hunters Evil.Eye Clete and the carnal man human sacrifice physical flesh-man's mindset. Too bad they refuse to see the parable, metaphor, and allegory, and instead need to make everything into a literal physical reality; for in so doing they disqualify their own understanding of the scripture because they pay no heed to actual context. According to the passage above, if it refers to a physical human being, his iniquities overtook him: how therefore do they pretend to have a perfect human sacrifice for all their sins? No wonder they cannibalize the scripture just about every time they post it; and for the same reasons they end up devouring both themselves and everyone else around them, for theoretically speaking they are themselves cannibals for seeing all things according to the eyes and mind of the carnal and natural man who walks according to his belly just as the serpent was cursed to do from the very beginning. Who therefore is truly the lunatic? :chuckle:

 

[daqq]

Hebrews 10:4-14 KJV
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: [Psalm 40:6]
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. [Psalm 40:6]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [Psalm 40:7-8]
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Psalm 40:6-12 KJV
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. [Hebrews 10:5-6]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, [Hebrews 10:7]
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. [Hebrews 10:7]
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.
12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.

"For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head". . .

So much for the heretic head-hunters Evil.Eye Clete and the carnal man human sacrifice physical flesh-man's mindset. Too bad they refuse to see the parable, metaphor, and allegory, and instead need to make everything into a literal physical reality; for in so doing they disqualify their own understanding of the scripture because they pay no heed to actual context. According to the passage above, if it refers to a physical human being, his iniquities overtook him: how therefore do they pretend to have a perfect human sacrifice for all their sins? No wonder they cannibalize the scripture just about every time they post it; and for the same reasons they end up devouring both themselves and everyone else around them, for theoretically speaking they are themselves cannibals for seeing all things according to the eyes and mind of the carnal and natural man who walks according to his belly just as the serpent was cursed to do from the very beginning. Who therefore is truly the lunatic? :chuckle:

The personification of the Memra or "the Word" originally comes from the Targums, (see Jewish Encyclopedia, Memra, for a primer), and the personification of the Logos is no doubt an expansion of that understanding. I do believe it all derives from Psalm 40, which is a "new song" about an old scroll which is about to be retired, (its "iniquities" are not iniquities but tatters, rips, and tears; in other words, as one of the meanings in the definition states, "contortions", and that is why the author of the epistle to the Hebrews sees no problem in applying the passage to Messiah). Think about this as you read and study the entire Psalm in your quiet time.

This is a Torah Scroll, the Word, coming into the world:

Psalm 40:7-8
6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire; mine earlets you have punctured-pierced: burnt offering and sin offering you have not requested.
7 Then said I, Behold, I come: in the mgillat-header of the Sefer it is written concerning me.
8 I delight to do your will, O my Elohim: your Torah is within my inward parts.

Hebrews 10:5-7
5 Wherefore when he enters into the world, he says, Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body have you prepare for me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you had no pleasure:
7 Then said I, Behold, I am come, in the κεφαλιδι-header of the Sefer it is written concerning me: I delight to do your will, O Elohim.

In the mgillat-kephalidi-header of the Sefer it is written concerning me . . .
That is, the crown-header of the Sefer, in the right hand side, Breshiyt-Genesis 1:1-5.

Notice he pierces or punctures "earlets" into the ends of the scroll with an awl, (or aul). However the entire roll is comprised of many souls having been "knit together" as one, (and we know, as in the case with Paul, μεμβρανας, which are are lambskin parchments, 2Tim 4:13, were used). Thus the Hebrew, (Psalm 40:6), and the Greek, (Psalm 40:6 OG LXX [39:7] has ωτια, "earlets", while Hebrews 10:5 has σωμα-body), are both correct because the "body", (σωμα), of Heb 10:5 is a metonymy for the entire "volume" of the "body" of the scroll, (κεφαλιδι-κεφαλις is rendered "volume" in the KJV but is also used in the LXX for chapiters, crowns, headers, and may even refer to a "head chapter" or header in a writing). That is precisely what this is; the header or head-section of the scroll, like a crown or the chapiter of the Sefer, (Genesis 1:1-5). Thus the lower σταυρος-stave borne by Shimon Kurenaio is of the erets-land-earth, (Genesis 1:1), while the top σταυρος-stave borne by Messiah reaches to the shamayim-heavens, (Genesis 1:1).

And what do we find at the right hand side in the κεφαλιδι header of the Scroll?

Genesis 1:1-5
1 In the beginning Elohim cut-down-created the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and Ruach Elohim brooded upon the face of the waters.
3 And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And Elohim saw the light, that it was good: and Elohim divided the light from the darkness.
5 And Elohim called the light, Yom, and the darkness He called Night. And there is evening, and there is morning: Yom Echad.

In the mgillat-kephalidi header of the Sefer it is written concerning me:
Ruach Elohim - the Memra - the Logos - the Word - the Yonah

1 John 1:1-2
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have beheld, and which our hands have handled, concerns the Word of life.
2 And the life was made manifest, and we have seen, and bear witness, and we announce unto you the life αιωνιον which was with the Father, and was made manifest unto us.

Who was from the beginning: Who we have heard: Who we have seen with our eyes: Who we have looked upon, and which our hands have handled, the Word of Life in the lambskin Sefer, whose earlets were pierced coming into the world, being affixed to the Atzei Chayim: Who we declare unto you.

[01] In the beginning was the Memra, and the Memra was with the Elohim, and the Memra was Elohim: the same was in the beginning with the Elohim.
[02] All things through him came into being; and outside of him came nothing into being which has come into being.
[03] In him was life, and the life was the light of men: and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness admits it not.
[04] There was a man sent from Elohim, of name Yohanan: the same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men by way of him might be fully convinced.
[05] He was not the Light but was sent to bear witness of the Light: the Light was the truth which lights every man that comes into the world.
[06] The same was in the world, and the world came to be through him, and the world knew him not: he came unto his own and his own received him not.
[07] But as many as receive him, to them he gives authority to become offspring of Elohim: those faithfully trusting into his name, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but from Elohim having been produced.
[08] And the Memra became flesh, and has tabernacled among us, but all flesh is not the same flesh: there is one kind of flesh of men, another of beasts, even μεμβρανας which are the lambskins of the Word, and another of fish, and another of birds, and therefore likewise doves.
[09] There are bodies heavenly, and bodies earthly; but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another: if there is a physical body, there is an ethereal body.
[10] And we have perceived his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a Father, replete with graciousness and truth.
[11] Yohanan testifies of him, and he has cried out, saying, This is of whom it was that I said, The one coming behind me, in front of me has become, because before me he was: for of his fullness we have all received, even graciousness in exchange for graciousness.
[12] Because the Torah through Mosheh was given: the grace and the truth has come to be through Meshiah Ι̅H.
[13] No one has seen Elohim at any time; the only begotten Elohim-Son who is in the Bay of the Father, that one has expounded Him.
[14] And this is the testimonial witness of Yohanan, when the Yhudim from Yerushalem sent Kohanim and Leviim asking him, Who are you?
[15] And he confessed and did not deny, and confessed, I am not the Meshiah.
[16] And they asked him, What then? Are you Elyahω? and he said, I am not. Are you the Prophet? and he answered, No.
[17] They said therefore to him, Who are you? so that we may give an answer to them that sent us: what say you of yourself?
[18] He said, I am Kol Kore bamidbar, Voice of a Cryer in the desert, Make yourselves straight the Way of ΙΑΩΑ, as haNavi Yeshayahω says.
[19] Also there were Perushim sent; they also questioned him, and said to him, Why then do you immerse if you are not the Meshiah, neither Elyahω, neither the Prophet?
[20] Answering them Yohanan said, I immerse with water, but in your midst stands one whom you know not: behind me is coming whom I am not worthy to loosen the strap of his sandal.
[21] These things came to pass in Beth-Ania, beyond Yarden, where Yohanan was immersing.
[22] The next day Yohanan beheld the Ι̅H coming down to him, and behold, a voice from the heavens, This is My Son, the Beloved, with whom I make approval, then Yohanan said, Behold, the Amnos of Elohim, who sails away the sins of the world! (then the Ι̅H left him).
[23] Then said Yohanan, This is of whom I said, Behind me comes a Gaber who in front of me has become, for before me he was:
[24] And I knew him not! but that he should be made manifest to Yisrael, for this cause I came immersing with water.
[25] And Yohanan testified, saying, For I perceive the Spirit descending like a dove out of heaven and abiding remaining upon them:
[26] And I knew him not! but He that sent me to immerse in water said to me, Upon whoever you see the Spirit descending and abiding-remaining upon him, the same he is immersing with Spirit Holy.
[27] I also have envisioned and have testified how that is the Son of Elohim.
[28] Who has ascended and descended the heavens? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His Name? What is the name of His Son if you can tell?
[29] The whole Memra of Eloahh is refined, He is a magen to them that put their trust in Him, and no one has ascended into the heavens if not the one who from the heavens has descended:
[30] The Son of Man who descended in corporeal ethereal bodily form as a Yonah-Dove.
[31] Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding, I have strength.
[32] By me kings reign and princes decree justice: by me princes and nobles rule, even all the judges of the earth:
[33] I love them that love me, and those that seek me early shall find me; riches and honor are with me, yea, durable riches and righteousness.
[34] My fruit is better than gold, yea, better than the finest gold: and my revenue is better than choice silver.
[35] I lead in the Way of Righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment, that I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
[36] ΙΑΩΑ possessed me in the beginning of His Way, before His works of old: I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
[37] When there were no depths I was brought forth: when there were no fountains abounding with water, before the mountains were settled, and before the hills, I was brought forth.
[38] While as yet He had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world: when He prepared the heavens, I was there.
[39] When He set a compass upon the face of the depth, when He established the clouds above, when He strengthened the fountains of the deep, when He gave to the sea His decree that the waters should not pass His commandment, when He appointed the foundations of the earth:
[40] Even then was I beside Him, as if one having been brought up with Him, and I was daily His delight rejoicing always before Him, rejoicing in the habitable portion of His Land: and my delights were with the sons of men.
[41] The next day again stood Yohanan, and there were two out of his talmidim: and watching the Ι̅H traversing the midst, he said, Behold, the Amnos-Lamb of Elohim!

And the Word became lambskin, and has tabernacled among us: Who we have heard: Who we have seen with our eyes: Who we have looked upon, and which our hands have handled, the Word of Life in the lambskin Sefer, whose earlets were pierced coming into the world, being affixed to the Atzei Chayim.

Syria Gallery

Yes, tabernacled among us, in the midst of the great congregation.

[01] It is written, In this year of the Yobel you shall return every man to his possession, and again, Any owner who lends to his neighbor shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbor or his brother:
[02] For ΙΑΩΑ your Elohim has proclaimed it the shmita-remission, a sending away, a release.
[03] And it shall come to pass in the last days that Melki Tzedek will return the captives, as it is written in haNavi Yeshayah, To proclaim liberty to the captives.
[04] For he will make their rebellious ones become their captives; and those who belong to Melki Tzedek will rule their former oppressors with a rod of iron, the Spirit of the Torah of Elohim.
[05] For the sons of light are given to Melki Tzedek, for they are his inheritance, and he will cause them to return: he will proclaim liberty to them, to free them from all their iniquities.
[06] And in the Yobel of the apokalypse, after Melki Tzedek has proclaimed liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound, the Yobel shall be proclaimed:
[07] In the tenth of the seventh month, in the year of redemption, the great and wondrous acceptable year of ΙΑΩΑ, the Yobel shall be proclaimed.
[08] And at that time an atonement shall be made for the sons of light, the sons of Elohim, those who are of the lot of Melki Tzedek: from the heights he will declare in their favor, according to their lots.
[09] For it is the appointed time of the year of the grace of Melki Tzedek, to exalt in the trial, to be lifted up and magnified, and to raise up the holy ones of Elohim by the rule of upright judgment.
[10] As it is written in the Psalm, Elohim stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the Elohim He judges: how long will you judge unjustly and accept the countenances of the wicked? Selah, (Pause).
[11] I have said, You are Elohim, and all of you are sons of the Most High; but you shall die like men, and fall as one of the sarim-princes:
[12] But then he says, Arise, O Elohim, and judge the earth: for you shall inherit all the nations!
[13] And the understanding concerns Belial and all the unclean spirits of his lot, who were all of them rebels, who turned aside from the commandments of Elohim to commit evil.
[14] And Melki Tzedek shall bring forth the upright judgements of Elohim in this day; and the sons of light shall be freed from the hands of Belial, and from the hands of all the unclean spirits of his lot.
[15] And to his aid shall come all the Elohim of justice and upright judgment; and Melki Tzedek will preside from this day evermore over all bnei Elohim, for he presides over the assembly of the Elohim.
[16] And this is the great day of peace, the day of which Elohim spoke in old time by way of the words of haNavi Yeshayah, saying:
[17] How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the Messenger who announces peace, the Messenger of good news who announces salvation, saying to Zion, Your Elohim reigns!
[18] The mountains are the prophets; and the greatest of them all is that Prophet like unto Moshe, whom Moshe prophesied was for to come:
[19] That Prophet is the Anointed Messenger who is blessed of Elohim Most High; blessed with Ruach Melki Tzedek, the Teacher of Righteousness who descends from the heavens.
[20] And when Melki Tzedek has come the Anointed Messenger will announce salvation from the heights, for he shall be sent to comfort the afflicted, and to watch over the smitten of Zion, and to instruct us in all the ages of the world in truth and in righteousness.
[21] And he shall turn the wise and circumspect in heart away from Belial with the upright judgments of Elohim, as it is written of him, saying to Zion, Your Elohim reigns!
[22] And to all the congregation of the sons of justice, and the sons of light, to those who establish the covenant, and those who avoid walking in the way of the heathen:
[23] Your Elohim and the head of the great congregation is Ruach Melki Tzedek, who is the only wise head under the Father, and the Father is the Great Head over all.
[24] And Melki Tzedek will free the captives from the hand of Belial, and the shofarim will blow in all the Land: and the great time of trouble shall come, the hour when Miykael shall pass|over.
[25] As it is written of that Prophet like unto Moshe, ΙΑΩΑ your Elohim will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him shall you hearken:
[26] According to all that you desired of ΙΑΩΑ your Elohim in Horeb, in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of ΙΑΩΑ my Elohim, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
[27] And ΙΑΩΑ said to me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
[28] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all whatsoever I shall command him.
[29] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words, which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
[30] For in the day of the assembly the people saw and heard the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and they removed, and stood far off.
[31] And they said unto Moshe, You speak immanu and we will hear: but let not speak immanu Elohim, lest we die!
[32] And Moshe said to the people, Fear not; for Elohim is come to prove you, that His reverential fear may be before your faces always, that you sin not.
[33] But the people stood far off, and Moshe drew near unto the thick darkness where Elohim was:
[34] And ΙΑΩΑ said to Moshe, Thus shall you say unto bnei Yisrael, You have seen that I have spoken with you from the shamayim.
[35] Moreover Moshe says again, These words ΙΑΩΑ spoke unto all your assembly in the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, out of the cloud, and out of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and He added no more, and He wrote them in two tables of stone and delivered them unto me.
[36] And it came to pass, that when you heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, though the mountain burned with fire, you came near to me, and all the heads of your tribes and your elders:
[37] And you said, Behold, ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that Elohim does indeed talk with man and he lives.
[38] Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we thus hear the voice of ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim any more, then we shall die.
[39] For who is there of all flesh, that has heard the voice of the Living Elohim speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and has lived?
[40] You go near, and hear all that ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim shall say: and you shall speak unto us all that ΙΑΩΑ our Elohim shall speak unto you; and we will hear it, and we will do it.
[41] And ΙΑΩΑ heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me; and ΙΑΩΑ said to me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken unto you: they have well said everything that they have spoken.
[42] מי - Miy shall put within them to have such an heart as this: that they might fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children forever!

Who is the too-Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace, and Mighty El, Who is Immanu·El, Who is that Prophet, Who is to come, Who is the Son of Man, Who is the Arm of ΙΑΩΑ revealed by Who, and Who is he that comes from Edom with garments died red from Bozrah, and Who took away all Miy question marks: for Who is Miy and Miy is Who and Who is like El. Who was from the beginning: Who we have heard: Who we have seen with our eyes: Who we have looked upon, and which our hands have handled, the Word of Life in the lambskin Sefer, whose earlets were pierced coming into the world, being affixed to the Atzei Chayim: Who we declare unto you!

Who is the Good Wine . . .

 

[daqq]

Psalm 40 speaks of a Torah Scroll, ehem, THE WORD.

 

[freelight]

Religious puns intended......

Religious puns intended......

Preface note: This is meant to be whimsical, tongue in cheek, but subtely sarcastic to make a point from one aspect of a liberal overview over theological debates in general, so suck it up.

These anti-Trinity threads are always populated with lunatics so I make no attempt to argue since its a useless waste of time.

This is not an "anti-trinity" thread, as it is a pro-Adoptionist view based on scripture, and particular verses expounded on clearly thus far. I guess 'lunatics' come in all shapes and sizes...and they have their own 'proof-texts' too, - they all use the 'Bible'. Have a seat on your own recliner chair (we have customized ones for all religionists) in the den of religious belief comforts,- kick up your feet, you're right at home (all denominations welcome )

I just dropped in to state plainly that if you do not believe that God Himself died for your sins, you are not saved.

But 'God' cannot die. Incorporeal, incorruptible, immortal SPIRIT can never die.

There is no teaching in the OT that God can die, or was ever to die for human sins, except what is read into scripture, and further developed in the NT, thru certain assumptions of 'Christology' and interpretational spins. There are ways of atonement that do NOT require blood, let alone a god-man dying for anyone sins. Penal substitionary death theory of atonement (popularized by Anselm in the 11th century on...) is not accepted by some Christians (for instance among some Eastern Orthodox Christians and many progressives). No Jew ever believes in a God who can die, or a God that dies for sins, since that is an impossibility. God certainly can provide atonement and nothing is given apart from his grace (all is granted by grace), but much he has given to man by his own means to atone for his own sins, since he has given him 'response-ability', and the freedom to choose the way of life (to repent and do good, choose immortality, etc.)

A 'theory' does not save or transform a soul necessarily. You can entertain any theoretical concept of salvation or 'atonement' that you like, but it does not substitute your own personal surrender (sacrifice) of heart and soul to God, by returning to God (yielding your soul and body as a sacrifice), and walking in the WAY of God, doing his will, etc. Faith is essential, so is knowledge, humility, surrender....as the true sacrifices that God ACCEPTS are a humble heart, contrite spirit, the fruit of ones lips in thanksgiving and praise (prayer/worship), the giving of one's whole being to God as a living sacrifice. It is these inward gestures and movements of the soul and body that are acceptable, which no amount of blood sacrifices or religious ritual can ever satisfy.

The prophetic admonition is always "Turn from your sins, and Do what is right". Mere belief in an intellectual concept, creed or religious 'formula of salvation' cannot guarantee salvation. I love to philosophize with the best of them, but there is no substitution for actual repentance that I can see thru-out the scriptures, if you want to limit yourself to its canon. I do not, but for the sake of discussion will point out what I see.

You profess a religion other than Christianity and are lost in your sin and will spend eternity in Hell unless you repent.

That is your belief. Not all share it. God's infinite love cannot be so constrained or limited, since He is the Father of all spirits and the God of all souls and all flesh. 'God' is INFINITE, and his omnipresence fills all space, time and infinity. This includes all human beings, amid the various religious cults, traditions and belief-systems. Christainity only comprises 1/3 of our planet's population. We are all God's offspring. The heavens and the earth cannot contain 'God', much less any one religious tradition or cult. Infinity is all-inclusive,...but some religionists would exclude and exclusivize their own religious belief or tradition as the "one and only true way". You cannot limit or partialize Infinite LOVE.

There's a reason it had to be God Who died on that cross - no other death would have been sufficient to pay the debt justice demands.

This is only according to one theory of atonement and its assumed requirements, a particular view of Christology and certain interpretational formats. And still, those who are pure in heart and love God,...these will see and know God (without all the extra icing or frills). Those who believe that God sent his Son into the world, and that this Son-Messiah is the way, truth and life of God revealed to them (his life, living example, teaching-word, his whole life-demonstration of loyalty and devotion to DOING God's will as much as could be revealed thru one human life), CAN have life into the ages, and will not suffer death (disintegration). John 3:16 - Such is the promise per Johns gospel,...its all about believing that Jesus is the SON of God, and that by believing, you can have life in his name. A Unitarian View wholly includes accepting this fundamental scriptural teaching, without imposing further conceptual formats or additives to the mix. One can believe any variation of Trinitarian or Modalist views if they like, however....the Sonship of Jesus, and that he was adopted as Gods Son by prophetic decree at his 'anointing' during his baptism, still stands. As I've said, you can choose whatever Christology you like (cherry pick as you please),...those who accept Jesus as the Messiah-Son of God and receive his words (testimony)...these are they that can have all that he promised, since they accept Him and his WORDS.

Okay, you can all go back to being lunatic, bat-fur crazy again!

But your recliner chair is in the same den of 'lunatics' because you all use the same religious book, interpret passages in your own various ways, then argue over who is right or wrong, dividing camps into 'orthodox' and 'heretical', then make creeds and dogmas of this or that, build little religious clubs and societies based on your own 'tenets' of faith, etc. Hey, its all good,...kick your feet up and relax,..there's coffee in the foyer and plenty of refreshments on the bar - we're all lunatics for Jesus eh?

 

[daqq]

Lol, well said, Freelight, and as I lean back in my recliner, with coffee at hand, I am reminded of a little anti-cannibal yarn the Master once showed me. If you see the Arm as literal you might not understand, (which I know you will not do), but if you look at the Arm as spiritual food, which is symbolism of the Word, then perhaps you might enjoy.

Once upon the twinkling of a twilight there is an oasis by the desert having been called Amphodon. One day the Great King who owns all of the Land passes by to inspect His garden oasis in the desert. As He approaches the oasis He sees two poor beggars having wandered in from the desert; neither of which have yet the strength left in him so as to make it so far as the fountain of the Water of Life, which flows in the midst of the paradise oasis. And having collapsed; they two lay there by the wayside, at the gate of Amphodon, parched from the scorching desert sun and slowly withering away. And when King ΕΓΩΕΙΜΙΟΩΝ sees them by the wayside laying there dying; He comes near, and says to them, I am LIFE! and all of Me Lives, I will tell you what I will do: I will cut from My own Right Arm and give it you for nourishment; consume all that I give you within this night and leave nothing til the morning come! But know this: In My Right Arm is Life, though I cut from him to you; My Arm will repose until about this time tomorrow, at twilight, and then he will awaken to Life Eternal. If indeed therefore you do consume all that I give you then you too shall Live because he Lives. Do as I say and Live! For why should you die? So the Great King ΕΓΩΕΙΜΙΟΩΝ cuts to them from His own Right Arm, and gives to them each accordingly for nourishment, sustenance, and Life; commanding them to consume all, leaving nothing til the morning come. And with that the Great King goes up from the two.

However, of the two dying beggars, one is foolish and the other is wise: and they two began to eat, and the first taste thereof is like wafers made with honey, as sweet as honey to the mouth; and they two immediately begin to revive upon the very first morsel. But on the second taste a bitterness begins to enter into the belly of the two. So the one foolish beggar says to his fellow, My belly is full enough, and I feel revitalized and full of life; need I consume any more of it for now? I will now go drink from the fountain of water. But I will tell you what I am going to do with my portion of this mighty Arm: of that which remains I will station on a stake and this will be my Elohim, for truly it has delivered me in my moment of hunger and despair! And if it comes to life tomorrow then I will surely know it is my Elohim; and so shall I worship the Almighty Arm for the rest of my days. But the one wise beggar himself drinks from the fountain of the Water of Life, but in secret, (by doing all that the Great King had commanded him to do), consuming all of his portion of the Arm that night and leaving nothing til his morning come: and so he falls on asleep, and he Sabbaths through the next day.

And when the next evening comes to pass, in the double light of twilight, the Great King Ο ΩΝ calls up His mighty Right Arm to ascend up to His Throne, (and His mighty Right Arm never returns to Him void). But the foolish beggar is in the midst of worshiping his portion of the mighty Arm when it bursts into a fiery flame, completely consumes, and the smoke thereof rises up into the heavens like the sweet smelling savor of a holy sacrifice unto the Most High. So the foolish beggar runs quickly to awaken his fellow, so as to tell him what has happened with his portion of the holy Arm, but his fellow is likewise nowhere to be found! None of the permanent dwellers upon the Land are really ever quite sure what happens to the one wise beggar who becomes a son, (for some reason they can neither see nor recognize his kind), but the double blind beggar Bar-Timaeos son of Timaeos starts his own new Elymas Bar-Jesus false religion; making the mighty Right Arm of the Father into his heavenly Father, which food disappeared into the fiery smoke right before his very carnal eyes. And the podiums, pedestals, and the steeples of his sheeples are strewn across the Land in every brothel of every city, in every town, and every unwalled village and habitation of his haunts. And in the steeples full of sheeples, behind the podiums with their preachers, priests, and teachers, there is a post fastened to the back wall, with a mighty Arm stationed upon it: but they will never eat the Arm, because they worship the Arm, and every fool knows that gods are not to be eaten and food is not to be worshiped! :Nineveh:

 

[Notaclue]

Lol, well said, Freelight, and as I lean back in my recliner, with coffee at hand, I am reminded of a little anti-cannibal yarn the Master once showed me. If you see the Arm as literal you might not understand, (which I know you will not do), but if you look at the Arm as spiritual food, which is symbolism of the Word, then perhaps you might enjoy.

Once upon the twinkling of a twilight there is an oasis by the desert having been called Amphodon. One day the Great King who owns all of the Land passes by to inspect His garden oasis in the desert. As He approaches the oasis He sees two poor beggars having wandered in from the desert; neither of which have yet the strength left in him so as to make it so far as the fountain of the Water of Life, which flows in the midst of the paradise oasis. And having collapsed; they two lay there by the wayside, at the gate of Amphodon, parched from the scorching desert sun and slowly withering away. And when King ΕΓΩΕΙΜΙΟΩΝ sees them by the wayside laying there dying; He comes near, and says to them, I am LIFE! and all of Me Lives, I will tell you what I will do: I will cut from My own Right Arm and give it you for nourishment; consume all that I give you within this night and leave nothing til the morning come! But know this: In My Right Arm is Life, though I cut from him to you; My Arm will repose until about this time tomorrow, at twilight, and then he will awaken to Life Eternal. If indeed therefore you do consume all that I give you then you too shall Live because he Lives. Do as I say and Live! For why should you die? So the Great King ΕΓΩΕΙΜΙΟΩΝ cuts to them from His own Right Arm, and gives to them each accordingly for nourishment, sustenance, and Life; commanding them to consume all, leaving nothing til the morning come. And with that the Great King goes up from the two.

However, of the two dying beggars, one is foolish and the other is wise: and they two began to eat, and the first taste thereof is like wafers made with honey, as sweet as honey to the mouth; and they two immediately begin to revive upon the very first morsel. But on the second taste a bitterness begins to enter into the belly of the two. So the one foolish beggar says to his fellow, My belly is full enough, and I feel revitalized and full of life; need I consume any more of it for now? I will now go drink from the fountain of water. But I will tell you what I am going to do with my portion of this mighty Arm: of that which remains I will station on a stake and this will be my Elohim, for truly it has delivered me in my moment of hunger and despair! And if it comes to life tomorrow then I will surely know it is my Elohim; and so shall I worship the Almighty Arm for the rest of my days. But the one wise beggar himself drinks from the fountain of the Water of Life, but in secret, (by doing all that the Great King had commanded him to do), consuming all of his portion of the Arm that night and leaving nothing til his morning come: and so he falls on asleep, and he Sabbaths through the next day.

And when the next evening comes to pass, in the double light of twilight, the Great King Ο ΩΝ calls up His mighty Right Arm to ascend up to His Throne, (and His mighty Right Arm never returns to Him void). But the foolish beggar is in the midst of worshiping his portion of the mighty Arm when it bursts into a fiery flame, completely consumes, and the smoke thereof rises up into the heavens like the sweet smelling savor of a holy sacrifice unto the Most High. So the foolish beggar runs quickly to awaken his fellow, so as to tell him what has happened with his portion of the holy Arm, but his fellow is likewise nowhere to be found! None of the permanent dwellers upon the Land are really ever quite sure what happens to the one wise beggar who becomes a son, (for some reason they can neither see nor recognize his kind), but the double blind beggar Bar-Timaeos son of Timaeos starts his own new Elymas Bar-Jesus false religion; making the mighty Right Arm of the Father into his heavenly Father, which food disappeared into the fiery smoke right before his very carnal eyes. And the podiums, pedestals, and the steeples of his sheeples are strewn across the Land in every brothel of every city, in every town, and every unwalled village and habitation of his haunts. And in the steeples full of sheeples, behind the podiums with their preachers, priests, and teachers, there is a post fastened to the back wall, with a mighty Arm stationed upon it: but they will never eat the Arm, because they worship the Arm, and every fool knows that gods are not to be eaten and food is not to be worshiped! :Nineveh:

Rom.1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:
25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.



Peace.

 

[daqq]

Rom.1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:
25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Peace.

:thumb:

Once there were two in a similar heated debate concerning the previous topic above. And the one carnal minded one says to the spiritual minded one, Some day you are going to find out the hard way; for when Jesus returns in glorified resurrected flesh, in the physical millennial thousand-year global Reich upon the earth, he is going to make you bow down and worship at my feet! (in reference to Rev 3:9, boasting himself to be from the congregation of Philadelphia, that is, "brotherly love", (lol)). And the spiritual minded one says in response to him, How can that be when as it is right now I consume your God? And if he comes back in resurrected flesh you will still be required to eat him if you want to have life, because that is what he said, and his words will never pass away. And the twofold Evil.Cletite says in response, You are no doubt a lunatic: nobody can eat God! What planet are you from you stupid blind fool? Can't you see that IAM trying to help you because I love you? And I said to him, If you love me like a Philadelphian brother then why did you just say that your God was going to make me bow down and worship at your feet? Do you not understand that as it is right now you worship Who is inside me? I consumed all of your God because my Father told me to, (and the leg-shoulder-Arm of Lamb is the choicest portion for the kohanim too!). :Nineveh:

 

[daqq]

Once there were two in a similar heated debate concerning the previous topic above. And the one carnal minded one says to the spiritual minded one, Some day you are going to find out the hard way; for when Jesus returns in glorified resurrected flesh, in the physical millennial thousand-year global Reich upon the earth, he is going to make you bow down and worship at my feet! (in reference to Rev 3:9, boasting himself to be from the congregation of Philadelphia, that is, "brotherly love", (lol)). And the spiritual minded one says in response to him, How can that be when as it is right now I consume your God? And if he comes back in resurrected flesh you will still be required to eat him if you want to have life, because that is what he said, and his words will never pass away. And the twofold Evil.Cletite says in response, You are no doubt a lunatic: nobody can eat God! What planet are you from you stupid blind fool? Can't you see that IAM trying to help you because I love you? And I said to him, If you love me like a Philadelphian brother then why did you just say that your God was going to make me bow down and worship at your feet? Do you not understand that as it is right now you worship Who is inside me? I consumed all of your God because my Father told me to, (and the leg-shoulder-Arm of Lamb is the choicest portion for the kohanim too!). :Nineveh:

Ex 12:3, 5, 7-8, 10, 13, Ex 29:27 KJV, Lv 7:32 KJV, 1Cor 5:6, 7, 8
Jn 6:32-33, 49, 50, 51, 53-54, 55-58, 62-63, Ex 16:31, Dt 8:3
Mt 24:23-25, 35, Mk 13:21-23, 31, Lk 17:20, 21, 23
2Cor 5:16, Heb 13:8 KJV

 

[Clete]

My God can not die Clete,

I fully understand!

That's why you'll go to Hell unless you repent.

My bet is that you do not fully understand what you're even saying. What, exactly, do you think it means to die?

he sent his created son to do that for us. John 3:16,

John chapter one (just a few pages earlier) states plainly that Jesus IS the Logos of God and that He was God and that He was with God in the beginning and that He is the Creator of all things and the He became a Man whom we call Jesus. It cannot be any more clearly stated. Its plain and obvious and beyond debate.

that is Christian 101 stuff.

You are no Christian. You've been tricked or you've tricked yourself, (probably the former). I'm not kidding about this; You and everyone you know who believes this stupidity are not Christian, do not follow Christ, are not saved and will spend eternity in Hell unless you repent and believe.

You don't get to just cherry pick whatever doctrines you like and which ones you want to discard without consequence. There is a reason why it had to be God doing the dying on that cross. It is the central doctrine of the entire Christian faith. Otherwise, we're just foolish quasi-Jews worshiping a false god, which is the boat you're in.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

If you too are going to judge, seeing that you have now clearly done so without cause, then you should not be surprised if and when your judgment is thrown right back into your own bosom. This is not face to face or in person, but is an internet forum board, where your words can destroy someone else's reputation and name. I have no unction, compulsion, or restraint that forces me to allow you to lie about me or to allow you to spread falsehoods about myself or what I believe. Therefore treat others how you wish to be treated because I will respond to you accordingly. I treat everyone on an individual basis, like human beings, unlike most of your crowd who seek to lump people into label-blocks so that you can herd them into categories and dismiss everything they say. Your judgment is meaningless to me: judge yourself first, O man, because I have the scripture and He and it already has and will destroy your false doctrine.

Soooo...

You're saying it's wrong to judge.

Right?

 

[Clete]

But 'God' cannot die. Incorporeal, incorruptible, immortal SPIRIT can never die.

To state this is to deny the Christian faith. Simple as that.

My bet is that you don't even understand what it means to die.

 

[musterion]

Otherwise, we're just foolish quasi-Jews worshiping a false god, which is the boat you're in.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I like that, though 'pseudo-Jews' would technically be more accurate.

Quasi: almost, but not quite
Pseudo: fake

 

[Interplanner]

To state this is to deny the Christian faith. Simple as that.

My bet is that you don't even understand what it means to die.

The God-man Christ is not just God dying, though. It is an entirely unique event, because he was also man, who died for others. So a person can still say that God cannot.