If there are two twins stuck together and they live to around 17 years old and then one is dying and you have 10 minutes to make a decision as to whether to separate them and the dying one loses their viability and the living one is no longer in any danger...
What do you suggest? I'm not quite sure what is best myself.
Let dying people die. If you only have 10 minutes until the one dies then there is no viability anyway.
Yes that if you really did think that then you would be heartless and callous and have little regard for most “persons” except for a tiny select few. Fear not I don’t believe you do.
I believe that God allows a lot of people to die. In fact, I believe God allows surgical abortions. Else they wouldn't be happening.
And you aren't even going to think about it for a bit to figure out what I'm trying to say...
Apparently most fail, it’s a fact, what other variation is there iyo I’d like to know?
If God is not willing that any should perish then everyone is given a chance, even if they die before getting it.
I think I do use my mind of course while you seem to mainly use your religious dogma.
And that right there proves that you don't use your mind; you don't think any of this through at all. You are a stubborn and conceited man who can't even comprehend the possibility that his first thought might be wrong.
What actually first gives us humans unavoidable blame iyo that we can’t apparently avoid? Is it just being a person with thoughts and experiences enough or must we do something actually “wrong”, and who decides what that is btw, you?
We receive blame when we do something blameworthy. And wrong is a constant, an absolute, not something one decides.
What evidence is there for your “Fall” and when and how does that affect things here and now? Does natural selection not occur and perhaps make it impossible or at least highly unlikely to be true?
Did less zygotes fail soon after the “Fall” than do now?
Less people of reproductive age, so of course there were less failed pregnancies.
As for evidence, there is the testimony of the word of God. There is also the obvious brokenness in the world, both physical and non-physical.
Why shouldn’t we, with some justification, blame your God for allowing such an awful waste of apparently innocent people if your “Fall” and “personhood” at conception is actually is true, or will you continue to obfuscate? Why couldn’t it just be that your God knows that no persons are being wasted in that way at that stage because they don’t exist yet?
Do you want to blame God for all the bad things He allows to happen? Or are you smart enough to recognize that allowing things to happen and actively making them happen are not the same thing?
I seem to be the one arguing that your God probably is not/would not be a sadistic tyrant and actually might care about people, while in your world He seems to allow most persons no chance of life at all, for no particularly clear reason at all that I can see.
You seem to equate allowing death with disallowing life. I feel sorry for you.
Tyrants force their wants on people, and believe their wants to be needs. God knows the difference between wants and needs, and doesn't force either of His on anyone. And yet He commanded laws against rape, murder, kidnapping, etc. because He recognized that some people would do those things if there were no negative consequences for doing them. And as abortion has shown He was right.
He was even right in knowing some people would ignore the laws and do them anyway, and those people deserved punishment for the harm they inflicted on others, and maybe even themselves so that they [in some cases] and others might learn to respect the laws, if they couldn't respect themselves and others.
And as for abortion, anyone who would willingly be complicit in such an act has no respect for themselves, or anyone else.
Please use your own mind this time not your dogma.
You wouldn't know a dogma if it bit you.
Your God must be appeased then, a sadistic tyrant perhaps?
No thanks, if your God is really that sadistic then I don’t feel inclined to accept His morality as my own.
Sadists cause pain, they don't simply allow it to happen. They also disallow pleasure [insofar as we're speaking of actual sadism and not kinks and fetishes, and insofar as they are able]. If God disallowed pleasure we would never know joy. If God was a sadist we would know nothing but pain, and He'd probably make certain every zygote made it to birth and beyond, so he would have more people on which to inflict pain.
I don’t agree it is non sequitur, if your God exists then He probably does care about all “persons” imo, if I am to believe most Christians, even if you don’t quite seem to match His concern. It then follows imo that actual “persons” are not in fact involved with zygotes to which God is my witness.
Of course you don't agree; you are incapable of critical thinking and rationale.
Allowing people to die does not equate to having no concern for them. Just because He doesn't actively make sure they make it beyond a certain point doesn't mean He doesn't care. And to try to wring such out of His allowance of such is illogical.
They have the right imo to decide for themselves if “murder” is even an issue in their particular situation and to conclude that their extant lives have greater value than perhaps a possibly expendable zygote.
Murder is murder, no matter what. Either abortion is murder, or it is not. Either I am right or I am wrong. No one can decide whether or not murder has taken place; they can only believe it has or believe it hasn't. But either way it is an absolute and does not change based on the opinion of those directly involved.
And no one person has greater value than any other while alive, unless they have committed an act worthy of death.
But surely “personhood” is a spiritual thing iyo, else, where in the physical constraints of a zygote could it ever exist?
A person exists when a person exists. Personhood is not metaphysical.:nono: It doesn't exist within a person, it is a state of being; a person is a person, period.
Why couldn’t a person emerge or even be introduced within a developing foetus’ CNS not before?
See above.
P1, statistically most zygotes do in fact fail.
P2, it is assumed that all zygotes are also persons.
We can therefore conclude that most persons are pre-destined to fail even if individuals are not. This isn’t about God electing anyone for special favours it’s just how it is.
How is that predestination [notice there is no hyphen]?
If your God is omnipotent why then would He allow it, and why do you so easily seem to want to accept imperfection from a perfect being?
He allows it because He is all-knowing; which means He knows better than you, or me.
He is not Aladdin's genie; He does not go about just doing whatever we wish. He does what He knows is best for all. This is not imperfection; in fact the imperfection on display here is your belief an omnipotent god should keep them all from dying.
And you won't even be able to come up with one good reason He might have for not doing what you think He should...
I would expect imperfection from Darwinian evolution but not from a god.
God is not the imperfect one in the relationship between Himself and us.:nono:
Face it LH unborn persons can’t be to blame for anything and nor for what they will become in your view, sinners; your “Fall” doctrine is just rubbish apologetics simply to have some kind of an answer to human imperfection!
I never said they could be to blame for anything, so how is my belief in The Fall rubbish apologetics in this regard? I simply gave you the reason there are physical failures, and God didn't cause any of it.
The only blame you could lay on Him is for creating people in the first place, and that's just stupidity and fear masquerading as anger.
Then make your alternative case if I am wrong, don’t just avoid it with this waffle, I’ll read it and perhaps reconsider my position.
What waffle? Or is that a British idiom?
Anyway, God allowed Adam to disobey because of the freedom of will, which is why He continues to allow disobedience, rebellion and rejection, etc.
He allows tragedy, pain, great loss, accidents, etc. because He desires that we learn to stand on our own, instead of relying on Him as a crutch. And it allows for us to more fully enjoy pleasure and joy, etc. He is God; He is all-knowing and all-seeing, He knows what is best for us; we do not. Which is why I trust Him more than I trust anyone else, or even myself.
No, just convinced.
I don’t suppose that anyone carries on anywhere after they die but I don’t actually know that any more than you actually do, despite what you think you know.
You may not have worries I don’t know about that, but I suspect you nor anyone else can actually predict the future, particularly an imaginary one, but do dream on LH dream away.
And what is that I am supposedly predicting? I made a statement regarding the present; namely my present state. And I am assured that I cannot undo that which He has done, and that He will never undo it. And I do not serve a God who breaks His promises.
I'm sorry your idols broke theirs.
And if say contraception goes wrong or after rape, for whatever reason the woman did not intend to be pregnant but nevertheless is, she must be forced iyo to gestate and produce an unwanted child, as though it were a punishment just for having sex?
A child is no punishment, ever. A child is a positive consequence, every time, even from a negative situation. And no matter how much a pregnant woman may not want to be pregnant or have a child, no child is ever unwanted; there is always someone who will want it.
And it is never right to kill someone for something someone else did.
She may perhaps conclude as I might do that there really is no person present at that time, but you would apparently still dogmatically deny her that choice, it seems, based on your own conclusions. But then again you somehow seem to just know that you are “saved”, you just know what is true for everyone each time and so couldn’t possibly ever be plain wrong, oh no, no.
And if you are wrong and I am right then a person has been killed.
And I've been wrong before; but this time I'm not. A person is a person and I am saved, sanctified and justified.
I suggest you don’t know squat LH.
Speaking of smug...
You think abortion always involves murder while I think later on it could perhaps be seen as that but clearly not in the early stages imo and everything must be taken into account regarding the facts of the individual case and not something to be governed by the rules of your unspecific blanket dogma.
So murder is OK as long as the facts of the individual case "justify" it?
If I am right then it is murder, and there is never any justification for murder.
You apparently just know exactly what is true or not so of course so I must be arrogant then, if you say so.
You aren't even capable of considering that you might be wrong and I might be right. I've at least considered such.
It couldn’t just be that you have nothing at all rational to say so calling me names is all you have left? :think:
You've yet to listen to rationale, so why should I keep trying? I am neither insane nor a fool.
Our own personal relative morality isn’t something provable by evidence LH; I try to base my morality on individual specific facts and evidence, rather than preferred assumptions, doctrine and dogma. This time I even rather think I have your God on my side, if He exists.
Moral is moral and immoral is immoral; they are not subjective, but objective. Morality is an absolute.
I assume that you think your God actually cares about the persons He apparently created, but perhaps your God doesn’t care and we’re all just ants?
His heart breaks for you more than mine does. I do wish I was more like Him.
Otoh if I’m right previously and He does care as other Christians will agree: obviously if so many zygotes were simply being flushed down the toilet then He must know full well that no “persons” are actually involved at that time or He wouldn’t allow it to happen that way. If your God exists then clearly that is evidence to a Christian anyway that persons are not being cruelly wasted on failing zygotes, seems pretty logical to me.
False dichotomy. It does not necessarily follow that God's allowance of a zygote to fail equates to their not being persons in light of the fact He cares for, and about, every single person in existence.
Well I’m pretty sure you don’t really know how saved you actually are even if you are totally convinced of it.
:yawn:
And I suppose you do?
Now you seem to be regretting ever suggesting the “Fall” as a justification for a tragic waste of human persons iyo. Can you suggest something else? Why don’t you get just as angry about the vast waste of human lives that your God iyo seems to allow to happen if indeed what you believe is true, which arguably from your God’s pov isn’t true anyway or at least doesn’t need to be.
Why would I regret it? The kerfuffle came from your presumptions; there is no fault on my side for that.
And why should I believe you would understand anything about God's POV?
Why should I be angry over natural death? I should maybe be sad, and I'm certainly not making the argument it doesn't sadden God; but as for myself I'm not involved enough to be sad for the loss, at least not as sad as those who are involved and have actually lost someone. And even with born persons I am sometimes not sad at their loss, even if I knew them. For instance I did not cry once over the death of my great-grandmother. I didn't even cry over the loss of my mom's cousin, whom I grew up referring to as my aunt [because of how close she and my mom were; my second cousins were like first cousins to me, and still are] until I looked into her children's faces and it hit me that they lost their mom, and that the tables could have been turned for a countless number of reasons [I thought to myself, "What if I had lost my mom?"].
But when my uncle died back in November I couldn't keep it together. From the moment I heard he was found unconscious and hypothermic and in the hospital in a coma I was genuinely worried that he would die. And at the funeral I cried profusely; I'm tearing up now thinking about the loss.
And as far as the natural abortions I do wish I cared more, sometimes. But I know better than to care about them as much as I care about those who are actively killed.
I think I’ll just remain calm and polite anyway, since your own preferred beliefs seem to cause you some annoyance when I probe, while my own do not seem to cause me any concerns or worries.
The only annoyance is your presumptuous assumptions about what I believe; which you have repeatedly demonstrated you know nothing about. You're worse than andyc or godrulz.
If you want to probe and inquire by all means do so, but don't presume to know what I believe without ever actually discussing it with me.
You seem to think know God’s habits well, does He talk to you saved people directly then LH?
Define "talk." He has communicated many things through His word and His actions. And there is certainly communion between God and those who are His.
But nevertheless He has no problem with letting you know that you at least are saved, even if He doesn’t actually reserve anyone a good parking space at the supermarket or helps them to find their lost keys, right?
How are these things even related?
I stated that God doesn't do for others what they can do for themselves; no one can save themselves.
