http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9782
Workman: Men were IN CHRIST even before Christ came to die for sins.
Sozo: Verse, please!
Workman: John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Christ was giving LIFE, spiritual LIFE to men even BEFORE he died for their sins. Again, the New COv't did not even come untill he died for sins. You know that they can't loose their identification with Christ because it says that they ARE passed (not "shall pass") from death to life. Since THIS is so, nobody can say that they must KEEP BELIEVING in order to avoid condemnation. Or else, they NEVER PASSED from death to life. No, the exact phrase "in Christ" is not found in the Old Testament, but then again neither is: Jesus Christ, baptism, Bride of Christ, etc. etc. etc. Just because the phrase is not there does not mean that the TEACHING is not there. Like us too, there was a difference between LIFE vs. reward...but that is a different issue..
Any man in CHrist's day could have life just by believing on his name.
Sozo: Sorry, but that verse says nothing to prove your contention. No one was in Christ until the Holy Spirit had come to dwell in the lives of believers.
"It is the Spirit who gives life"
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
Workman: WEll, then we have a REAL problem, cause for some strange reason Christ LEFT THAT OUT in John 5, didn't he??? I mean, after all, it really does NOT MATTER what Christ told people in John 5 if he told other people something different, huh? Oh, yes...that text you gave DOES look forward to the Acts period, but what God WOULD DO THEN does not alter what Christ said was happening in John 5.
Sozo: I don't have a problem, Jesus often spoke of events that were yet to occur.
There was no freedom from condemnation until the debt had been paid. The ability to "believe on Him" was not possible until Jesus had accomplished what God had prepared for Him.
To suggest that anyone possessed the life of God (was in Christ) before Christ's death and resurrection is blasphemous and insults His sacrifice, His shed blood, and His resurrection.
Jerry Shugart: "The hour is coming,and now is,when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God;and they that live shall hear"(Jn.5:25).
First of all, Workman has already provided a verse that demonstrates that they were indeed people who believed on Him before the Cross.In fact,who would deny that His Apostles did in fact believe on Him before the CRoss?
And by the Lord's own words those who believed before the Cross "shall not come into condemnation".
Sozo: The benefit from those words were not in effect until Christ sent the Holy Spirit.
It proclaims the same message of grace that has always been available by looking forward to God's provision.
No one was "in Christ", before Christ paid the debt for sin. Christ proclaimed the inheritence that would come for those who believe/believed.
Jerry Shugart: If the "benefits" were not in effect at the time the Lord Jsus spoke those words,then why in the world would He say that they already have everlasting life--"hath everlasting life"?
And why would the Lord Jesus say that that they have already passed from death unto life?
Sozo: Jerry, I don't see why this is such a problem for you (unless of course you hold to a Calvinistic view of the gospel). Jesus is making a promise, that will not be realized until He sends the Holy Spirit. It is impossible for anyone to have been in Christ before they had received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit could not dwell in believers until Christ had paid the debt for sin, and been raised.
Jerry Shugart: If what you say is true,the Lord would have used "future" tense at John 5:24,25.But He did not! Instead,He was speaking in the "present" tense.
If the promises were not to be fulfilled until later,then He would not say that those who are believing (present tense) already have everlasting life and have already passed from death unto life.
You assume that the only way throughout time that one could be saved is by being "in Christ".But there is no Scriptual basis for your idea.And although it was not until after the Cross that believers were dwelled by the Holy Spirit,it is a fact that even during the time that the Lord walked the earth that the Holy Spirit was quickening dead sinners.That is the meaning of the words of the Lord Jesus when HE said the following:
"It is the Spirit that giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).
Sozo: You've got to be kidding, that you don't understand that!
For you to teach that anyone was saved apart from the death & resurrection of Christ, is blasphemous.
Jerry Shugart: It is you who has to be kidding.Don't you know the difference between "present" tense and "future" tense?
I am not teaching salvation apart from the death of Jesus Christ.Instead,the Scriptures state that the sins of believers before the CRoss were "covered":
"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered"(Ro.4:6,7).
David lived before the Cross,but through the Lord's forbearence He is able to "cover" David's sins all the while knowning that HE could place those sins on the Lord Jesus at the Cross.And that is exactly what Paul is speaking of in the following verse where he talks about "sins that are past",i.e. the sins of those who lived in previous dispensations:
"...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God"(Ro.3:25).
And the author of Hebrews makes it plain that the death of the Lord Jesus redeemed the sins of those who lived under the dispensation of the law (as did David):
"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance"(Heb.9:15).
Those who lived under the law at the time that the Lord Jesus walked the earth were saved and "born of God" when they believed that He is the Christ,the Son of God:
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God... Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"(1Jn.5:1,5).
Those who received the Lord Jesus Christ while He walked the earth were "born of God":
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"(Jn.1:12,13).
It is evident that there were sinners who were saved even before the Cross.There were many that believed that Jesus Christ is the Christ,the Son of God,and upon believing that they were "born of God" and received "everlasting life".
Sozo: You have completely undermined the message of the gospel through this heretical view of yours.
I never said that they must believe in some future tense of the word believe. They believe NOW, but they Holy Spirit could not come until Christ was glorified. Without the Holy Spirit living in the life of the believer they were not saved. They have the promise of salvation (just as did any one under the first covenant), but not the reality. Belief in God was accounted as righteousness, but NONE of them received the promise! You negate the cross, by teaching this heresy of yours, which is damnable! Where do you get this convoluted idea, and why would you make claim to it. What is your evil motivation?
Jerry Shugart: It is your views which deny what is so plain in Scripture.According to you we must believe that no one was saved before the Cross.But what about the following words of the Lord Jesus?:
"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"(Mt.22:32).
Are we supposed to believe that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were not saved at the time the Lord said those words? Those men were "dead" physically,but they were "alive" spiritually.
And are we supposed to believe that Moses and Elijah were not saved,even though the Apostles saw them with the Lord Jesus at the tranfiguration?:
"And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him"(Mt.17:2,3).
The vast majority of dispensational teachers say the same thing that I am saying.Here are words from the "New Scofield Study Bible":
Before the cross man was saved in prospect of Christ's atoning sacrifice,through believing the revelation thus far given him"(note at Genesis 1:28).
If you have read any dispensational writers besides Bob Hill and Bob Enyart then you would be aware that they all say that believers were saved before the Cross. All the great dispensational writers,from John Nelson Darby to Sir Robert Anderson,teach that believers were saved before the Cross.
Sozo: "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. "
Jerry Shugart: The words there are speaking of the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit and not the "quickening" of the Holy Spirit.
Can you quote even one noted Bible teacher that teaches as you do?Just one?
And what about Enoch?Here is what the author of Hebrews said about him:
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death,and was not found,because God had translated him;for before his translation he had this testimony,that he pleased God"(Heb.11:5).
This happened before the Cross,but in order to believe your ideas we must somehow force our mind into believing that even though Enoch was translated that he should not see death that he was not saved!
Sozo: Not that it matters, but Charles Spurgeon, Major Ian Thomas, David Needham, Bob George, Bill Gillham, Peter Gilquist, Malcolm Smith, and others.
They all believe in an exchanged life.
"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect."
Jerry Shugart: The promises which they did not receive are in reference to "eschatological hopes".As a result,the perfecting (Heb.10:14;12:23) of the OT worthies--that is,the realization of their hopes--awaits that of all believers.
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise them up again at the last day"(Jn.6:39).
Here the Lord is saying that none of those given to Him by the Father should be lost,and that HE will raise them up again the last day.
If these people who were given to Him were not saved then we are all in trouble!
And I would like to hear a quote of Spurgeon where he says that nobody was saved before the Cross.
